New 68060 accelerator idea

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 08:10

OK an ambitious but sincerely serious project. Something we've all seen as the 'Unicorn' of Amiga upgrades that never seem to make it past vapour-ware. I have yet to see anything from the UltimatePPC project and mine is similar but initially for the A1200.

Anyways.

Here is my pipe dream so far.

A1200 Accelerator Card:

- full MC68060 (mmu+fpu)
- PowerPC processor (yet to be decided - possibly PWRficient, possibly something beefy like POWER7+)
- 4 x DDR/2/3 SO-DIMM slots
- XMOS DSP for hi-fi onboard audio plus programmable DSP.
- Gigabit Ethernet
- PowerVR or AMD GPU with HDMI output
- 802.11.ac Wifi
- Bluetooth
- MicroSD
- SATA III

Due to the similarities in Specifications and design it may be somewhat compatible with the Amiga X-1000 systems.

With current embedded design techniques this card could easily be made to fit and run nice and cool in a space much smaller than the A1200 expansion bay - That's not where we will run into problems. It's more about compatibility with existing extensions such as Picasso96, AHI and PowerUP/WarpUP.

My goal is to have this thing as compatible as possible with Classic Amiga software. Especially access to the CPUs, RAM, GPU through Picasso96 and OpenGL, DSP and Audio through AHI, ethernet etc.

What are your thoughts guys?

Jope · 12 July 2015, 08:19

Go for it, but do it in quiet, only emerging into the limelight once your product is ready.

My opinion: take out the PPC, and the XMOS DSP and make the world's best 060 turbo.

strim · 12 July 2015, 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by rarefaction_

OK an ambitious but sincerely serious project.

So, do you have any electronics engineering knowledge? Or is this just wishful thinking?

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 11:08

The very next UltimatePPC desaster.
Best of all:
working 68060 are no longer available.
XMOS chip is outrun by the PPC and i doubt any coder will do the job.
Too many extension ports.
Standard psu underpowered.

Dear moderators, move this "pipe dream" from gullivers thread, please. Thank you.

Jope · 12 July 2015, 11:33

Yeah, it wasn't in the right place. Now moved.

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 11:56

oooh, and i forgot mocking PowerVR , AMD driver development for any amiga-like machine or OS.

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 13:12

@BigFan - good.. let the hate flow through you...

What would you know about the standard power supply? I have a 68060 card and that requires a beefier modified PC psu already.

Fun Fact: A current model smartphone has about 100 times the raw power of an '060 chip, and they run off a 3.7v 2800mAh battery for days, including high end gpu and other 'extension ports' the largest power usage on a smartphone is the display. I don't think you understand quite how far embedded electronics have come in the past 20 years.

@strim - I do have a degree in electronics engineering and I was thinking of doing this as a project for my Masters next semester... but i might just work on it in secret if this is the kind of feedback i am bound to get..

First up...

- The AMD gpu isn't really too far from the Radeon chipsets that some Mediator PCI setups have used in the past.. certainly a starting point to work form in any case.

- XMOS is actually already implemented in Amiga OS 4.1 as it is used in the X1000 - it can be done...

Like i said it is ambitious but nothing is impossible.

I dont understand where the UltimatePPC project went?? That looked like it was making good progress.

A lot of the drivers I have no problem developing myself with the help of other positive minded people.

I don't have a problem with the engineering side of things. I can make it physically work, I would need help from the community though to get behind the project.

As far as 68060 availability - well yes they are no longer manufactured. Something that I will need to look into. Possibly using an overclocked 040 or even FPGA emulation??

I understand it's very ambitious - yet if it did exist and was implemented properly I can't see why people wouldn't love it.

I didn't expect such negative feedback though. No wonder these projects never get off the ground if so much of the community is so opposed to them

A little disappointing really.

AJCopland · 12 July 2015, 13:24

No the community is hopeless at supporting things from the early stage, but there's a long history of vaporware so everyone is ... well, extremely jaded.

They perk up once you've got a track record of released projects though, look at support for Trevor or Kipper2k

So my advice is to crack on and do the work. Hire people to do the bits you can't do, like the electrical engineering if you must, then factor that into costs later. It won't make financial sense in the end though.

Still, if you want it and no-one else is going to make it...

Mr.Flibble · 12 July 2015, 14:11

It's very, very ambitious, and you're not that far off from trying to build an X-1000 as an add-on card from looking at that list...

Go for it - Worst case even if it doesn't work out, you'll learn an awful lot which may lead to better things later

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 14:58

@rarefaction_

I'm not quoting your entire postings, but this list before you start re-editing again.

Quote:

A1200 Accelerator Card:

- full MC68060 (mmu+fpu)
- PowerPC processor (yet to be decided - possibly PWRficient, possibly something beefy like POWER7+)
- 4 x DDR/2/3 SO-DIMM slots
- XMOS DSP for hi-fi onboard audio plus programmable DSP.
- Gigabit Ethernet
- PowerVR or AMD GPU with HDMI output
- 802.11.ac Wifi
- Bluetooth
- MicroSD
- SATA III

embedded devices ?

with a 68060?

Power7+?

DDR2/3 SO-DIMM?

SATA3 ?

Ever tried to use SATA-III (internal or external) hard disk on your smartphone ?
Or SO-DIMM? GBit Ethernet?
This stuff sucks all the juice it get from a 40W brick and more.
An un-used port may be considered "power efficient", but what's the point when
no hardware is attached?
You're an electonic engineer then? Wow, chapeau.

You guy sound like Peeve, Steep or what the name is from RPC-Games.
Well, Centron3D has been revived. Now in hardware.

me hates? No

this pipe dream is purest cynicism. it's sort of entertaining.

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 15:16

I am not saying it will run on a 50W a500 brick.

I am saying that modern devices do not pull serious power any more since the low-level design of these kinds of devices is very different these days - most of the components will be highly efficient. If it is to use a real 68060 and not a software emulated core - that chip will pull more power than the rest of the card combined.

Look at MIST or Minimig, these devices use hardly any current.

I think you don't have the knowledge to understand what I am trying to achieve. You just seem like a jaded 40 year old troll.

I don't care about pessimistic views like yours - you may as well save your time and keep your jaded keyboard warrior trolling efforts to yourself.

In my case, it only fuels me to want to achieve these great things just to prove neckbeard loser trolls like you wrong.

I do, however, value input from people who are wiling to share unique ideas and promote the positivity of the Amiga scene.

Mr.Flibble · 12 July 2015, 15:21

That's the spirit

Start with a wish-list, then refine it based on what you discover along the way

ptyerman · 12 July 2015, 15:27

Well said mate, +1. Ignore the trolls, although there does seem to be a few about lately!

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Flibble

It's very, very ambitious, and you're not that far off from trying to build an X-1000 as an add-on card from looking at that list...

Go for it - Worst case even if it doesn't work out, you'll learn an awful lot which may lead to better things later

Thanks for the positive vibes man.

I feel like I might be on the wrong forum at times lol

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 16:04

You asked for this, remember?

Quote:

What are your thoughts guys?

Am i trolling or hating when i doubt this project ever comes real?

With this highly unrealistic feature list?
Don't expect different answers in other forums. If something sounds to good
to be true, it isn't.

Well, suprise me. I'll be waiting patiently for any schematics.

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 16:05

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=2742

Maybe i am not so crazy.

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by rarefaction_

Look at MIST or Minimig, these devices use hardly any current.

What MiST or MiniMig is running a Power7 (5000 $ CPU)
or a 68080?

Now i know, you're not an electronic engineer. Thanks for clearing this up.

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 16:11

@BigFan

Dude shut up. Your input is not required.
kthanksbye.

BigFan · 12 July 2015, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rarefaction_

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=2742

Maybe i am not so crazy.

Maybe you don't know the difference between that and your wishlist

oh, c'mon, Pete.
It's getting more fun with every line.

rarefaction_ · 12 July 2015, 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFan

What MiST or MiniMig is running a Power7 (5000 $ CPU)
or a 68080?

Now i know, you're not an electronic engineer. Thanks for clearing this up.

[ Show youtube player ]

Minimig running a real 68060.

I think you should leave before you embarrass yourself further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFan

Maybe you don't know the difference between that and your wishlist

Oh, I am well aware of the difference

12 July 2015, 08:10	#1
rarefaction_ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 17	New 68060 accelerator idea OK an ambitious but sincerely serious project. Something we've all seen as the 'Unicorn' of Amiga upgrades that never seem to make it past vapour-ware. I have yet to see anything from the UltimatePPC project and mine is similar but initially for the A1200. Anyways. Here is my pipe dream so far. A1200 Accelerator Card: - full MC68060 (mmu+fpu) - PowerPC processor (yet to be decided - possibly PWRficient, possibly something beefy like POWER7+) - 4 x DDR/2/3 SO-DIMM slots - XMOS DSP for hi-fi onboard audio plus programmable DSP. - Gigabit Ethernet - PowerVR or AMD GPU with HDMI output - 802.11.ac Wifi - Bluetooth - MicroSD - SATA III Due to the similarities in Specifications and design it may be somewhat compatible with the Amiga X-1000 systems. With current embedded design techniques this card could easily be made to fit and run nice and cool in a space much smaller than the A1200 expansion bay - That's not where we will run into problems. It's more about compatibility with existing extensions such as Picasso96, AHI and PowerUP/WarpUP. My goal is to have this thing as compatible as possible with Classic Amiga software. Especially access to the CPUs, RAM, GPU through Picasso96 and OpenGL, DSP and Audio through AHI, ethernet etc. What are your thoughts guys? Last edited by rarefaction_; 12 July 2015 at 14:02.

12 July 2015, 13:12	#7
rarefaction_ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 17	@BigFan - good.. let the hate flow through you... What would you know about the standard power supply? I have a 68060 card and that requires a beefier modified PC psu already. Fun Fact: A current model smartphone has about 100 times the raw power of an '060 chip, and they run off a 3.7v 2800mAh battery for days, including high end gpu and other 'extension ports' the largest power usage on a smartphone is the display. I don't think you understand quite how far embedded electronics have come in the past 20 years. @strim - I do have a degree in electronics engineering and I was thinking of doing this as a project for my Masters next semester... but i might just work on it in secret if this is the kind of feedback i am bound to get.. First up... - The AMD gpu isn't really too far from the Radeon chipsets that some Mediator PCI setups have used in the past.. certainly a starting point to work form in any case. - XMOS is actually already implemented in Amiga OS 4.1 as it is used in the X1000 - it can be done... Like i said it is ambitious but nothing is impossible. I dont understand where the UltimatePPC project went?? That looked like it was making good progress. A lot of the drivers I have no problem developing myself with the help of other positive minded people. I don't have a problem with the engineering side of things. I can make it physically work, I would need help from the community though to get behind the project. As far as 68060 availability - well yes they are no longer manufactured. Something that I will need to look into. Possibly using an overclocked 040 or even FPGA emulation?? I understand it's very ambitious - yet if it did exist and was implemented properly I can't see why people wouldn't love it. I didn't expect such negative feedback though. No wonder these projects never get off the ground if so much of the community is so opposed to them A little disappointing really. Last edited by rarefaction_; 12 July 2015 at 13:25.

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12 July 2015, 08:19	#2
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,900	Go for it, but do it in quiet, only emerging into the limelight once your product is ready. My opinion: take out the PPC, and the XMOS DSP and make the world's best 060 turbo.

12 July 2015, 11:08	#4
BigFan Registered User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 261	The very next UltimatePPC desaster. Best of all: working 68060 are no longer available. XMOS chip is outrun by the PPC and i doubt any coder will do the job. Too many extension ports. Standard psu underpowered. Dear moderators, move this "pipe dream" from gullivers thread, please. Thank you.

12 July 2015, 11:33	#5
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,900	Yeah, it wasn't in the right place. Now moved.

12 July 2015, 11:56	#6
BigFan Registered User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 261	oooh, and i forgot mocking PowerVR , AMD driver development for any amiga-like machine or OS.

12 July 2015, 13:24	#8
AJCopland Registered User Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Beeston, Nottinghamshire, UK Posts: 240	No the community is hopeless at supporting things from the early stage, but there's a long history of vaporware so everyone is ... well, extremely jaded. They perk up once you've got a track record of released projects though, look at support for Trevor or Kipper2k So my advice is to crack on and do the work. Hire people to do the bits you can't do, like the electrical engineering if you must, then factor that into costs later. It won't make financial sense in the end though. Still, if you want it and no-one else is going to make it...

12 July 2015, 14:11	#9
Mr.Flibble Registered User Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: UK Posts: 472	It's very, very ambitious, and you're not that far off from trying to build an X-1000 as an add-on card from looking at that list... Go for it - Worst case even if it doesn't work out, you'll learn an awful lot which may lead to better things later

12 July 2015, 15:16	#11
rarefaction_ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 17	I am not saying it will run on a 50W a500 brick. I am saying that modern devices do not pull serious power any more since the low-level design of these kinds of devices is very different these days - most of the components will be highly efficient. If it is to use a real 68060 and not a software emulated core - that chip will pull more power than the rest of the card combined. Look at MIST or Minimig, these devices use hardly any current. I think you don't have the knowledge to understand what I am trying to achieve. You just seem like a jaded 40 year old troll. I don't care about pessimistic views like yours - you may as well save your time and keep your jaded keyboard warrior trolling efforts to yourself. In my case, it only fuels me to want to achieve these great things just to prove neckbeard loser trolls like you wrong. I do, however, value input from people who are wiling to share unique ideas and promote the positivity of the Amiga scene.

12 July 2015, 15:21	#12
Mr.Flibble Registered User Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: UK Posts: 472	That's the spirit Start with a wish-list, then refine it based on what you discover along the way

12 July 2015, 15:27	#13
ptyerman Registered User Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Worksop/UK Age: 59 Posts: 1,328	Well said mate, +1. Ignore the trolls, although there does seem to be a few about lately!

12 July 2015, 16:05	#16
rarefaction_ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 17	http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1&note=2742 Maybe i am not so crazy.

12 July 2015, 16:11	#18
rarefaction_ Registered User Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 17	@BigFan Dude shut up. Your input is not required. kthanksbye.

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