Amiga FDD emulator

Amiga1992 · 18 December 2002, 16:30

Didn't know where to put this... What the hell...

This is a request for an app that does not exist

I was wondering if, by using WinUAE's floppy drive emulation, it would be possible to build a program like 64HDD... I know WinUAE's FDD emulation is not perfect but it's the best one out there, and this tool is pretty damn useful!

If the emulation could be used what's needed is an interface between teh Amiga and the PC, let's say, a cable that goees from teh floppy conenctor to teh PC's parallel port...

Is this a crazy idea? Would it be possible? It'd be most interesting!

fiath · 18 December 2002, 17:00

Actually something like this (hardware) is already planned - see our wanted page.

It will be DIY hardware that can be built to re-master copy protected floppy disks. So as we were going to that length, we decided we want to make it read disks too - this will allow people without an Amiga to dump their disks for CAPS.

I am sure when we are finished somebody will add support to UAE if all goes well....

BippyM · 18 December 2002, 17:07

And how long will that be?

Surely the Catweasel 3 does something similar? No?

fiath · 18 December 2002, 17:38

Long time.

We have only just started spec'ing it. So who knows... But it *will* get done sooner or later. I wouldn't say it if that was not the case.

Of course your right though, you could just go buy a CW, I think Toni intends to add support for this anyway right?

Amiga1992 · 18 December 2002, 18:24

What I'm "looking for" is an interface that would allow my Amiga that has no disk drive to "read floppies" from the PC... Just the way 64HDD works... Cable goes on PC's parallel port, other end conencts to the Amiga's internal FDD controller (or the external FDD connetor), Amiga reads through it like if it had a disk drive. Diskdrive sound simulation could be implemented to a good use here

Disk flipping and that kind of stuff would be handled from within the PC program interface. ADFs, DMSs and CAPS format could all be supported! No more disk transferring.

Heck, it might be simpler than 64HDD, the Commodore serial bus disk drives are computers on their own and have processors, memory, etc!

I wish I could do it myself but my knowledge about all this techy stuff is pish poor

Severin · 18 December 2002, 23:48

Sounds like an awfully expensive external floppy drive that can't read amiga format disks to me

just buy an external drive...

Of course I might be missing the point here as I have no idea what 64HDD is...

BippyM · 19 December 2002, 01:16

You are he wants to treat ADF's etc like a proper floppy, so can transfer them to Amiga using PC parrallel to Amiga FDD!!

Miggy2TheMax · 19 December 2002, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira
What I'm "looking for" is an interface that would allow my Amiga that has no disk drive to "read floppies" from the PC... Just the way 64HDD works... Cable goes on PC's parallel port, other end conencts to the Amiga's internal FDD controller (or the external FDD connetor), Amiga reads through it like if it had a disk drive. Diskdrive sound simulation could be implemented to a good use here

Disk flipping and that kind of stuff would be handled from within the PC program interface. ADFs, DMSs and CAPS format could all be supported! No more disk transferring.

Heck, it might be simpler than 64HDD, the Commodore serial bus disk drives are computers on their own and have processors, memory, etc!

I wish I could do it myself but my knowledge about all this techy stuff is pish poor

I think I know exactly what you mean akira

.. I don't know if your recall me posting about creating a floppy drive for an amiga that is just a bunch of ram chips. Therefore its really a ram drive rather than a floppy drive, but in its physical state. No need for whdload/jst and more ram for running classical games. Just copy them from adf files to your "ram" floppy and run them.

It would be great to hear from people that are thinking about doing (or have hints on) what either akira or myself are suggesting!!

cheers.

Amiga1992 · 19 December 2002, 02:19

Bipps and severin, you didn't understand squat

Click on the bloody link to 64HDD to get a clue of what I mean. 64HDD is a BRILLIANT tool I use everytime I start up my C64s. (Bippy was closer, but still, the idea is NOT needing an Amiga FDD mate)

Miggy, your idea I remember, but it's much more complicated. Mine is simpler and, IMO, "doable". If I had half a skill of programming (I do have a bit of it, but not enough I say), and half a skill on technical knowledge of the Amiga and PC, I would do this myself. The Amiga tech part might not be needed either (except for a pinout of the internal or external floppy disk drive connectors). All work would be done on the PC, the Amiga shouldn't notice a difference between having a REAL diskdrive attached or a PC attached to it... This is how it works on the 64 with 64HDD

If you go to 64HDD's site you might understand clearly what this all is about. If you can try the program, better yet. I fell in love with it from the very first moment I used it with my PC and SX64!

Miggy2TheMax · 19 December 2002, 04:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira

.... [snip]

Miggy, your idea I remember, but it's much more complicated. Mine is simpler and, IMO, "doable". If I had half a skill of programming (I do have a bit of it, but not enough I say), and half a skill on technical knowledge of the Amiga and PC, I would do this myself. The Amiga tech part might not be needed either (except for a pinout of the internal or external floppy disk drive connectors). All work would be done on the PC, the Amiga shouldn't notice a difference between having a REAL diskdrive attached or a PC attached to it... This is how it works on the 64 with 64HDD

[snip] ...

I know, my idea is more complicated, but has the same philosophy behind it. Anyway, I have heard of 64HDD and its an awsome development, I hope we do find an amigaHDD equivalent somewhere out there, I'd seriously be drooling in total excitment!! The possibilities would be incredible. Please keep us posted if anyone does find anything! Cheers.

I'm going to look at the specs of the 64HDD, but I think it might be more complicated for the amiga as the amiga floppy drive has more pins than the 64 floppy drives.

edit: just looked briefly and there seems to be no source code provided.

I wish there was also developers notes, possible SDK and stuff like that, so I could have a read and see how hard it would be to develop

fiath · 19 December 2002, 10:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Akira
What I'm "looking for" is an interface that would allow my Amiga that has no disk drive to "read floppies" from the PC... Just the way 64HDD works... Cable goes on PC's parallel port, other end conencts to the Amiga's internal FDD controller (or the external FDD connetor), Amiga reads through it like if it had a disk drive. Diskdrive sound simulation could be implemented to a good use here

Disk flipping and that kind of stuff would be handled from within the PC program interface. ADFs, DMSs and CAPS format could all be supported! No more disk transferring.

Heck, it might be simpler than 64HDD, the Commodore serial bus disk drives are computers on their own and have processors, memory, etc!

I wish I could do it myself but my knowledge about all this techy stuff is pish poor

Sorry, I misunderstood also.

Neat idea!

But, I think it would be rather complicated. I don't think you could use the UAE FDD emulation because you would not be emulating the floppy disk CONTROLLER (that is on the Amiga motherboard) you would be "simulating" the physical disk drive itself. i.e. You would need to "vitually" move the stepper motor around the disk image.

You would be using the Amiga's FDC already...

If you didn't get the timing right, you would wouldn't get much working. I don't think something like the parallel port would be fast enough anyway (but I could be wrong).

Is anybody did anything like this for the Amiga, I think it would be one huge technical feat.

Amiga1992 · 19 December 2002, 14:02

Quote:

Originally posted by fiath
But, I think it would be rather complicated. I don't think you could use the UAE FDD emulation because you would not be emulating the floppy disk CONTROLLER (that is on the Amiga motherboard)

Ahhh, I get that.. Yep, the Amiga controller would be in use...

Quote:

you would be "simulating" the physical disk drive itself. i.e. You would need to "vitually" move the stepper motor around the disk image.

And wouldn't this make it easier? I dunno, as I said I know pish all about this :P

In any case, would be lovely to have such a thing developed.

fiath · 19 December 2002, 15:13

Yes, good point, it would save emulating the FDC, but I think it is really a different problem.

If you had to emulate the FDC, you could "shortcut" the commands to get a track.

Okay, so very simply...

Normal operation (real FDC, real drive):

1) Program says gimme track 23
2) FDC says, sure hangon, drive: move to the position and read until I find the required index pulse (end of track)
3) Drive moves the motor and returns the data

Emulation of both (shortcut):

1) Program says gimme track 23
2) Emulated FDC gets track 23 from the image keeping the timing into account

Emulated floppy (our case, real FDC, emu drive):

1) Program says gimme track 23
2) FDC says, sure hangon, drive: move to the position and read until I find the required index pulse (end of track)
-- Sent over wires to PC--
3) Calculate from what the FDC is trying to do with the stepper motor back into what track is needed & send that back in the form the FDC expects.

With the last you have more mechanical simulation problem rather than in the first situation where you have an emulation one.

Who knows, it may be far simpler than I imagine. But I wouldn't like to try it myself...

Severin · 19 December 2002, 16:07

Let me get this straight, you want to access adf files from your pc as amiga floppies?

if so, all you need is some pc<>amiga parnet software (eg, NetworkPC) and a program like
HFMounter or my VF2000 to actually mount the images...

HFMounter allows upto 12 virtual floppies to be mounted and my VF2000 upto 32...

They will not work with non-dos disks but for them just use rad: and reboot to run them...

If you want to try VF2000, pm/email me for the latest version (the one on aminet doesn't supprt adf's directly).

best to grab the aminet version anyway, then I can just send you the updated exe

Amiga1992 · 19 December 2002, 18:50

NO, that's not the idea Severin. Please check teh 64HDD site and read our posts one more time

fiath: I see, it indeed seems to be more complicated than what I thought!

Oh well, it was a nice idea, innit

Toni Wilen · 21 December 2002, 08:55

Nice idea. Not too hard to implement, we only need fast (DD floppy bit rate is about 500 000 bits/second!) hardware parallel to serial converter and connect couple of control signals directly (side select, step, track0 etc..)

It might be possible to use PC's serial port as a parallel to serial converter but I am not sure if it supports high enough bit rates and if it is possible to disable stop-bits.

But I am sure someone else has already designed simple and fast hardware that can be used in this project. Expect new information "soon"...

Amiga1992 · 21 December 2002, 18:33

w00t

I said parallel just because I have no clue. It could be USB. Hell, it could be Ethernet (or Firewire

)

RetroMan · 21 December 2002, 21:07

Hey it works for other Computers, so why not for Amiga

I just built a SIO2PC Interface for my old ATARI 600XL which only contains one chip (1489IC) to translate TTL > RS232 ..... You then connect the Interface with COM Port on PC and use APE (Atari Peripheral Emulator) to emulate the Floppy Drives/Tape Drives/Modems

Shouldn´t this also be possible for Amiga ?

The hardest Part would be the Software on PeCe side I think .... There is a little Hardware Hack to Boot from external Floppy drive, so why not use the External Floppy Port and a little PCB to act like a external Floppy and give the commands to PC Serial Port ??? Should be possible, I´ll have a deeper look into this for sure

Toni Wilen · 21 December 2002, 22:14

I am not familiar with Atari and SIO-bus but on Amiga the only way to "hook" to the floppy drive is floppy connector because floppy data bit stream from floppy drive goes directly to Paula and control signals go to CIA-chips.

Atari probably used some standard components for floppy controller but as we all know Amiga uses custom chips heavily..

Software is the easiest part. Most of the code can be ripped from UAE. Hardware isn't so easy. Small and cheap microcontroller with build-in UART connected to serial port may be the best solution.

adolescent · 22 December 2002, 02:38

It's definately not going to be easy. Even with 64HDD, which is the best 1541 emulator for the C64, lots of games won't work (ie. almost anything with a fast loader), and because of strict timing needed won't work in Windows. Also, with Amiga being a modern system supporting cheap harddrives, what is the real benefit. (ie. it's much easier to supply the WHDLoad guys with an original and hope for a HD version, or in the odd case it doesn't work, write a floppy or two to get it working...)

18 December 2002, 16:30	#1
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,651	Amiga FDD emulator Didn't know where to put this... What the hell... This is a request for an app that does not exist I was wondering if, by using WinUAE's floppy drive emulation, it would be possible to build a program like 64HDD... I know WinUAE's FDD emulation is not perfect but it's the best one out there, and this tool is pretty damn useful! If the emulation could be used what's needed is an interface between teh Amiga and the PC, let's say, a cable that goees from teh floppy conenctor to teh PC's parallel port... Is this a crazy idea? Would it be possible? It'd be most interesting!

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18 December 2002, 17:00	#2
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Actually something like this (hardware) is already planned - see our wanted page. It will be DIY hardware that can be built to re-master copy protected floppy disks. So as we were going to that length, we decided we want to make it read disks too - this will allow people without an Amiga to dump their disks for CAPS. I am sure when we are finished somebody will add support to UAE if all goes well....

18 December 2002, 17:07	#3
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	And how long will that be? Surely the Catweasel 3 does something similar? No?

18 December 2002, 17:38	#4
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Long time. We have only just started spec'ing it. So who knows... But it will get done sooner or later. I wouldn't say it if that was not the case. Of course your right though, you could just go buy a CW, I think Toni intends to add support for this anyway right?

18 December 2002, 18:24	#5
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,651	What I'm "looking for" is an interface that would allow my Amiga that has no disk drive to "read floppies" from the PC... Just the way 64HDD works... Cable goes on PC's parallel port, other end conencts to the Amiga's internal FDD controller (or the external FDD connetor), Amiga reads through it like if it had a disk drive. Diskdrive sound simulation could be implemented to a good use here Disk flipping and that kind of stuff would be handled from within the PC program interface. ADFs, DMSs and CAPS format could all be supported! No more disk transferring. Heck, it might be simpler than 64HDD, the Commodore serial bus disk drives are computers on their own and have processors, memory, etc! I wish I could do it myself but my knowledge about all this techy stuff is pish poor

18 December 2002, 23:48	#6
Severin Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gloucester / UK Posts: 700	Sounds like an awfully expensive external floppy drive that can't read amiga format disks to me just buy an external drive... Of course I might be missing the point here as I have no idea what 64HDD is...

19 December 2002, 01:16	#7
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	You are he wants to treat ADF's etc like a proper floppy, so can transfer them to Amiga using PC parrallel to Amiga FDD!!

19 December 2002, 02:19	#9
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,651	Bipps and severin, you didn't understand squat Click on the bloody link to 64HDD to get a clue of what I mean. 64HDD is a BRILLIANT tool I use everytime I start up my C64s. (Bippy was closer, but still, the idea is NOT needing an Amiga FDD mate) Miggy, your idea I remember, but it's much more complicated. Mine is simpler and, IMO, "doable". If I had half a skill of programming (I do have a bit of it, but not enough I say), and half a skill on technical knowledge of the Amiga and PC, I would do this myself. The Amiga tech part might not be needed either (except for a pinout of the internal or external floppy disk drive connectors). All work would be done on the PC, the Amiga shouldn't notice a difference between having a REAL diskdrive attached or a PC attached to it... This is how it works on the 64 with 64HDD If you go to 64HDD's site you might understand clearly what this all is about. If you can try the program, better yet. I fell in love with it from the very first moment I used it with my PC and SX64!

19 December 2002, 15:13	#13
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Yes, good point, it would save emulating the FDC, but I think it is really a different problem. If you had to emulate the FDC, you could "shortcut" the commands to get a track. Okay, so very simply... Normal operation (real FDC, real drive): 1) Program says gimme track 23 2) FDC says, sure hangon, drive: move to the position and read until I find the required index pulse (end of track) 3) Drive moves the motor and returns the data Emulation of both (shortcut): 1) Program says gimme track 23 2) Emulated FDC gets track 23 from the image keeping the timing into account Emulated floppy (our case, real FDC, emu drive): 1) Program says gimme track 23 2) FDC says, sure hangon, drive: move to the position and read until I find the required index pulse (end of track) -- Sent over wires to PC-- 3) Calculate from what the FDC is trying to do with the stepper motor back into what track is needed & send that back in the form the FDC expects. With the last you have more mechanical simulation problem rather than in the first situation where you have an emulation one. Who knows, it may be far simpler than I imagine. But I wouldn't like to try it myself...

19 December 2002, 16:07	#14
Severin Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Gloucester / UK Posts: 700	Let me get this straight, you want to access adf files from your pc as amiga floppies? if so, all you need is some pc<>amiga parnet software (eg, NetworkPC) and a program like HFMounter or my VF2000 to actually mount the images... HFMounter allows upto 12 virtual floppies to be mounted and my VF2000 upto 32... They will not work with non-dos disks but for them just use rad: and reboot to run them... If you want to try VF2000, pm/email me for the latest version (the one on aminet doesn't supprt adf's directly). best to grab the aminet version anyway, then I can just send you the updated exe

19 December 2002, 18:50	#15
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,651	NO, that's not the idea Severin. Please check teh 64HDD site and read our posts one more time fiath: I see, it indeed seems to be more complicated than what I thought! Oh well, it was a nice idea, innit

21 December 2002, 08:55	#16
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,567	Nice idea. Not too hard to implement, we only need fast (DD floppy bit rate is about 500 000 bits/second!) hardware parallel to serial converter and connect couple of control signals directly (side select, step, track0 etc..) It might be possible to use PC's serial port as a parallel to serial converter but I am not sure if it supports high enough bit rates and if it is possible to disable stop-bits. But I am sure someone else has already designed simple and fast hardware that can be used in this project. Expect new information "soon"...

21 December 2002, 18:33	#17
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,651	w00t I said parallel just because I have no clue. It could be USB. Hell, it could be Ethernet (or Firewire )

21 December 2002, 21:07	#18
RetroMan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Germany Age: 51 Posts: 3,704	Hey it works for other Computers, so why not for Amiga I just built a SIO2PC Interface for my old ATARI 600XL which only contains one chip (1489IC) to translate TTL > RS232 ..... You then connect the Interface with COM Port on PC and use APE (Atari Peripheral Emulator) to emulate the Floppy Drives/Tape Drives/Modems Shouldn´t this also be possible for Amiga ? The hardest Part would be the Software on PeCe side I think .... There is a little Hardware Hack to Boot from external Floppy drive, so why not use the External Floppy Port and a little PCB to act like a external Floppy and give the commands to PC Serial Port ??? Should be possible, I´ll have a deeper look into this for sure

21 December 2002, 22:14	#19
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,567	I am not familiar with Atari and SIO-bus but on Amiga the only way to "hook" to the floppy drive is floppy connector because floppy data bit stream from floppy drive goes directly to Paula and control signals go to CIA-chips. Atari probably used some standard components for floppy controller but as we all know Amiga uses custom chips heavily.. Software is the easiest part. Most of the code can be ripped from UAE. Hardware isn't so easy. Small and cheap microcontroller with build-in UART connected to serial port may be the best solution.

22 December 2002, 02:38	#20
adolescent Powered by Motorola Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Age: 52 Posts: 1,065	It's definately not going to be easy. Even with 64HDD, which is the best 1541 emulator for the C64, lots of games won't work (ie. almost anything with a fast loader), and because of strict timing needed won't work in Windows. Also, with Amiga being a modern system supporting cheap harddrives, what is the real benefit. (ie. it's much easier to supply the WHDLoad guys with an original and hope for a HD version, or in the odd case it doesn't work, write a floppy or two to get it working...)

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