C.A.P.S. Game Manuals -> What file format?

fiath · 15 November 2002, 21:10

I am still trying to decide on how to distribute Amiga manuals in C.A.P.S. releases... As far as I know of, there are only two ways I can properly do this:

JPEG's (Page1.jpg, Page2.jpg, etc.)
One PDF.

I would much rather have the manual in one file. So I personally am slanted towards PDF.

What do you guys think is best? Please rememer this manuals should be viewable on a range of platforms - but please suggest any more you know of and I will edit the poll. If you suggest another format, don't vote yet.

Thanks!

Update: Thanks to Burseg, I want to clarify that low colour manuals (or pages of manuals) will be stored as PNG due to the crap that a JPEG would put out...

§ane · 15 November 2002, 21:24

I despise the proprietary format that is PDF. But they are stored as JPEG essentially, right? I vote for multiple JPEGs, even though it's a lossy compression...

15 November 2002, 22:27

Using JPG format is a terrible idea for black&white manuals. High contrast black&white is something JPEG compression hates. It fails to compress enough and a lot of noise will occur.

RetroMan · 15 November 2002, 23:13

I voted for PDF

All "modern" Platforms can display PDF Files, even an Amiga can

v8juice · 16 November 2002, 00:05

PDF is fine with me...

16 November 2002, 00:20

I don't know what C.A.P.S. is all about but storing a manual as several JPEGs instead of one PDF would be daft. PDF is brilliant with black and White manuals, although I am judging from PC manuals (From the PC Sold Out range that includes lots of Amiga games

)

fiath · 16 November 2002, 00:51

@§ane

Yes, JPG's are lossy, but everything is scanned at 300dpi - storing the images as anything else would just be silly.

Also, PDF is not "really" proprietry anymore - the specs are well known. However, even if we were not to use it - what is the alternative that is not multiple files? I don't know. Hence the poll!

@Burseg

You are right of course. I should have mentioned that on low colour scans, PNG will be used.

@NytroX86

Have a look at the website in my sig.

DrBong · 16 November 2002, 10:41

PDF is quite a nice format if you want to read or print out a doc. Colour or black & white pics show up quite nicely too if care is taken. As Retroman pointed out, even the Amiga has one or two good PDF readers these days.

manicx · 16 November 2002, 12:29

PDF... Works great on any computer including our beloved Amiga.... Keep up the good work there my friend.

Twistin'Ghost · 16 November 2002, 12:49

PDF rules. It's not perfect, but its shortcomings would not even be a factor for the subject at hand. For restoration of game manuals, there is no better solution at this time.

jmmijo · 16 November 2002, 17:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
PDF rules. It's not perfect, but its shortcomings would not even be a factor for the subject at hand. For restoration of game manuals, there is no better solution at this time.

You put it quite nicely TG, I voted for PDF myself

Syko · 16 November 2002, 18:35

since the only other way for Amiga specific files, would be multiview doc with embeded jpeg for diagrams/screenshots I say PDF is fine.

Yes its owned by Adobe, but its the best electronic document format I've seen on any platform, that gives single files.

ECA · 17 November 2002, 01:30

300 DPI isnt needed to View on a monitor. Only need 96 dpi
I HATE PDF. Only for 1 good reason. Those that USE it, dont clean it up, and use ONLY what is needed. They tend to be VERY slow, and 10-100x TEXT format.

There WAS a RTF format that took pics....where is it.

Ash · 17 November 2002, 08:46

PDF

fiath · 17 November 2002, 08:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Kodoichi
Maybe the new JPEG2000 format has a better compression than the old one?

Nice! Thanks, I have just been looking at this - it looks really sweet!

There is even a plugin available for Adobe products so I could use this format embedded.

Shame JPEG2000 encoders/decoders are a bit thin on the ground... On an Amiga? No chance! (at present anyway)

Quote:

Anyway, I want the manuals to be in text format with ASCII pics ;P

No chance.

fiath · 17 November 2002, 08:51

Quote:

Originally posted by ECA
300 DPI isnt needed to View on a monitor. Only need 96 dpi

That is not the point - this is a preservation project. We decided on 300 dpi because it gives the best results *printing* without enabling professional reproduction (where you need 600 dpi).

Quote:

I HATE PDF. Only for 1 good reason. Those that USE it, dont clean it up, and use ONLY what is needed. They tend to be VERY slow, and 10-100x TEXT format.

Not quite sure what you mean here... Are you saying don't just embed the pics?

Quote:

There WAS a RTF format that took pics....where is it.

Any suggestions welcome - if you find a better format, let me know.

fiath · 17 November 2002, 08:54

Okay guys, that was a fairly conclusive poll!

Thanks to all who voted.

I am still open to suggestions, but the likely option will be PDF.

I am also still looking at JPEG2000 though - C.A.P.S. releases are going to be about 20-40Mb at present - just because of the scans - so it is certainly worth considering... (embedding into PDF of course).

ECA · 17 November 2002, 09:49

Reproduction is Fine. Alot of program will interpolate when printed, as MS Word does. And if its B&W, 96 DPI is fine.
300 Dpi figures to be about 1 meg per sqin of a Pic.
If its for Display only..96 DPI is fine...Print format.. Id suggest 150.

Embedded pics, ok, or even Pics included with the RTF format with Footnotes to tell which Pic to look at.

Quote:

Originally posted by fiath
That is not the point - this is a preservation project. We decided on 300 dpi because it gives the best results *printing* without enabling professional reproduction (where you need 600 dpi).

Not quite sure what you mean here... Are you saying don't just embed the pics?

Any suggestions welcome - if you find a better format, let me know.

Miggy2TheMax · 17 November 2002, 10:49

Quote:

Originally posted by §ane
I despise the proprietary format that is PDF. But they are stored as JPEG essentially, right? I vote for multiple JPEGs, even though it's a lossy compression...

I understand where you are coming from there... proprietary stuff bites, but you can always use a utility like pdf2... and convert it to another format and work with that.

Drake1009 · 17 November 2002, 16:14

I'm indifferent to which format is used.

PDF is nice because it's one file. Good compression for B&W manuals and everything. But it has it's own shortcomings to pull it down.

In contrast JPG is a lot of files which is both an advantage in case you only want a certain part of the manual, but as was said. JPGs don't do that well for B/W scans and I believe they might even take longer to scan than PDF even if the PDF need to scan over a page twice.

View Poll Results: What format would you like C.A.P.S. manuals in?
PDF	37	92.50%
Multiple JPEG's	3	7.50%
Voters: 40. You may not vote on this poll

15 November 2002, 21:10	#1
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	C.A.P.S. Game Manuals -> What file format? I am still trying to decide on how to distribute Amiga manuals in C.A.P.S. releases... As far as I know of, there are only two ways I can properly do this: JPEG's (Page1.jpg, Page2.jpg, etc.) One PDF. I would much rather have the manual in one file. So I personally am slanted towards PDF. What do you guys think is best? Please rememer this manuals should be viewable on a range of platforms - but please suggest any more you know of and I will edit the poll. If you suggest another format, don't vote yet. Thanks! Update: Thanks to Burseg, I want to clarify that low colour manuals (or pages of manuals) will be stored as PNG due to the crap that a JPEG would put out... Last edited by fiath; 16 November 2002 at 00:53.

17 November 2002, 01:30	#13
ECA Obnoxious twit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: wendell, someplace Age: 64 Posts: 37	300 DPI isnt needed to View on a monitor. Only need 96 dpi I HATE PDF. Only for 1 good reason. Those that USE it, dont clean it up, and use ONLY what is needed. They tend to be VERY slow, and 10-100x TEXT format. There WAS a RTF format that took pics....where is it. Last edited by ECA; 17 November 2002 at 01:37.

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15 November 2002, 21:24	#2
§ane Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: . Age: 44 Posts: 246	I despise the proprietary format that is PDF. But they are stored as JPEG essentially, right? I vote for multiple JPEGs, even though it's a lossy compression...

15 November 2002, 22:27	#3
oldpx Posts: n/a	Using JPG format is a terrible idea for black&white manuals. High contrast black&white is something JPEG compression hates. It fails to compress enough and a lot of noise will occur.

15 November 2002, 23:13	#4
RetroMan Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Germany Age: 51 Posts: 3,704	I voted for PDF All "modern" Platforms can display PDF Files, even an Amiga can

16 November 2002, 00:05	#5
v8juice Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: United States Posts: 86	PDF is fine with me...

16 November 2002, 00:20	#6
NytroX86 Posts: n/a	I don't know what C.A.P.S. is all about but storing a manual as several JPEGs instead of one PDF would be daft. PDF is brilliant with black and White manuals, although I am judging from PC manuals (From the PC Sold Out range that includes lots of Amiga games )

16 November 2002, 00:51	#7
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	@§ane Yes, JPG's are lossy, but everything is scanned at 300dpi - storing the images as anything else would just be silly. Also, PDF is not "really" proprietry anymore - the specs are well known. However, even if we were not to use it - what is the alternative that is not multiple files? I don't know. Hence the poll! @Burseg You are right of course. I should have mentioned that on low colour scans, PNG will be used. @NytroX86 Have a look at the website in my sig.

16 November 2002, 10:41	#8
DrBong HOL / AMR Team Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 2,632	PDF is quite a nice format if you want to read or print out a doc. Colour or black & white pics show up quite nicely too if care is taken. As Retroman pointed out, even the Amiga has one or two good PDF readers these days.

16 November 2002, 12:29	#9
manicx Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 991	PDF... Works great on any computer including our beloved Amiga.... Keep up the good work there my friend.

16 November 2002, 12:49	#10
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	PDF rules. It's not perfect, but its shortcomings would not even be a factor for the subject at hand. For restoration of game manuals, there is no better solution at this time.

16 November 2002, 18:35	#12
Syko Now got GSX750F :)) Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Halifax UK Age: 60 Posts: 584	since the only other way for Amiga specific files, would be multiview doc with embeded jpeg for diagrams/screenshots I say PDF is fine. Yes its owned by Adobe, but its the best electronic document format I've seen on any platform, that gives single files.

17 November 2002, 08:46	#14
Ash Zone Friend Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Aus Posts: 175	PDF

17 November 2002, 08:54	#17
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Okay guys, that was a fairly conclusive poll! Thanks to all who voted. I am still open to suggestions, but the likely option will be PDF. I am also still looking at JPEG2000 though - C.A.P.S. releases are going to be about 20-40Mb at present - just because of the scans - so it is certainly worth considering... (embedding into PDF of course).

17 November 2002, 16:14	#20
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	I'm indifferent to which format is used. PDF is nice because it's one file. Good compression for B&W manuals and everything. But it has it's own shortcomings to pull it down. In contrast JPG is a lot of files which is both an advantage in case you only want a certain part of the manual, but as was said. JPGs don't do that well for B/W scans and I believe they might even take longer to scan than PDF even if the PDF need to scan over a page twice.

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