Slow startup, hangs with Caps-lock lit.

[e5frog]

I'm not sure it's an error but it's rather annoying, when turning my A600 (KS3.1 WB3.1 2GB HDD CF) on after it being shut off for a few days it seems to hang with the Caps Lock LED lit. Before I have tried to shut power off and on a few times and finally it has started with just a flash instead of hanging there. This time I tried just leaving it turned on and it finally started without the shut off/on mambo...

Why, anything I can do about it - except having more patience or to have it turned on all the time?

I don't know how long it needs to be shut off before it behaves like that again, but just waiting a minute or a couple seems to not make it happen again - then it starts right away with no Caps Lock LED light at all as far as I can see.

I googled and found this:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12780916/Amiga-Boot-Sequence

It appears to be normal behavior but I don't understand why it doesn't happen every time - some capacitor needs to be completely discharged perhaps?


EDIT: So I manged to get it to "hang" again, after leaving it shut off about an hour. Caps Lock was lit (no blinking) for about 40 seconds, then there were some Caps Lock blinking, the A600 appeared to reset and then booted up normally with just a flash on the Caps Lock - as it usually does. So it appears to have some issues when starting from a discharged system. It's not a big deal - it just takes about a minute to get it started after a long shut off.
If there really were a hardware problem it should be noticeable at every startup, right?

[Loedown]

See if the problem continues to get worse, the problem with intermittant failure is that it's much harder to diagnose.

[e5frog]

Well, I've had this kind of hang the last six or seven times I've started it after a long enough break.

Tried it again, took over a minute before the LED changed from constant ON to blinking, just continuous blinking for about a minute as well before any harddrive activity, then a reset some more C.L. flashes before some more HDD-activity, reset and then it cycled there three times...

So more trouble than last time, but it has also been turned off a lot longer.

When shutting it down and back up again it starts just fine, it just troublesome after a period of being shut off.

Perhaps I'll start out by trying another power supply. I have one with an annoying buzz as well...

EDIT: I left it on, and suddenly after maybe five minutes it just reset:ed - for no obvious reason, I hadn't done anything at all, and then once more after a couple of minutes. Removed the PCMCIA 2MB SRAM, that was the last thing I added, lets see what happens.

Perhaps the PC is interfering, I'm currently using a common screen. My Wii had some odd behavior when I used an IR keyboard interface when I left the mouse plug from the same interface in the PC - it didn't like that at all. It took me a while to figure out that that was the problem.

Are there any test programs that can help finding hardware errors in chips or so?

[prowler]

Here is a text version of the document found by e5frog here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12780916/Amiga-Boot-Sequence
The file cannot be downloaded, and the way the page is coded makes it difficult to save.

Amiga 'Boot' Sequence 

After getting a number of inquiries from fellow Amiga users 
about what's wrong with their Amigas when their Caplock key 
starts flashing, or, why the screen flashed odd colors, I 
decided to create this file. 

The Amiga goes through a rather elaborate startup sequence 
which is a series of diagnostic tests the Amiga goes through 
during each 'cold' or 'warm' boot. The following is a list 
of what happens during each and every 'boot':

1. Clear all old data in RAM
2. Disable DMA and interrupts
3. Clear the screen
4. Check hardware (is the 680x0 working?)
5. Change screen color indicating pass/fail
6. Perform checksum test of all ROMs
7. Change screen color indicating pass/fail
8. Begin system startup
9. Check RAM at $C0000..move SYSBASE there
10. Test CHIP RAM
11. Change screen color indicating pass/fail
12. Check if software is coming in OK
13. Change screen color indicating pass/fail
14. Set up CHIP RAM to receive data
15. Link libraries
16. Check for any additional RAM and link it
17. Turn on DMA and interrupts
18. Start default task
19. Check processor and MMU type
20. Check for an Exception (processor error)
21. If found, do a reset
22. If not, normal 'boot'

As these tests are running, the Capslock key will normally 
'flash' once, and the screen will cycle colors. The chart 
below used in conjunction with the above steps indicates 
both a 'normal' and an 'abnormal' boot.

NORMAL                      Fault Condition 

Screen color:
   Dark Grey                Red (indicates error in ROM) 
   Light Grey               Green (error in CHIP RAM) 
   White                    Blue (error in a Custom Chip) 
                            Yellow (680x0 found an error) 
Capslock Key: 
Stays on for several secs   One blink (ROM checksum failed)
                            Two blinks (RAM test failed)
                            Three blinks (Whatchdog timer)
                            Four blinks (A short exists between 
                                         2 lines or one of the 
                                         special keys)
 
Please note that the capslock 'blinks' are short in duration 
(about one second) and that your screen colors may falsely indicate 
a problem when you do a 'warm' boot depending on what state the 
Amiga was in before the warm boot. Its best to watch for these 
diagostic errors upon initial startup. If your Amiga exhibits any 
of these errors frequently, you should take it to an Authorised 
Service Center for service. The most common error you will 
encounter is that you'll see a bright green screen at the initial 
boot.. this usually indicates that an addon RAM board is not seated 
in its socket properly. Try reseating it before you take it all to
your dealer. You may save yourself some money;)

[e5frog]

... and it behaves the same when I use the 1.3 ROM (I have a quad boot ROM from which I can currently switch between 1.3 and 3.1).

If I shut it down before a successful boot it starts again with the "locked up" state where C.L-LED is lit.

I don't understand what it does while the Caps Lock LED is on, it doesn't really say in the quoted document.

[e5frog]

Found some tips here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/...83&forum=25&17

@Earthling

Does the CAPS LOCK light stay on?

If so, leave the machine for a while and see if it boots up (and by "a while" I mean a few hours) to the Kickstart prompt.

If it does then at least one of your capacitors has gone the way of the Dodo and needs replacing. It's a simple job (done it on two of my A600s - both had that problem). First one to check is the capacitor under the floppy drive - check for fuzziness around the base.



@Earthling

Good, sounds like that's your problem.

The system is actually waiting for the +5V (I think) power line to become stable. Eventually it'll do so and boot up, probably about an hour after turning on if it's like mine. If in doubt leave it overnight.

Tell your friend to look at the capacitors under the disk drive, and replace any that look remotely dodgy (or all of them anyway - there's not many) over the whole board. I just soldered some 10p-from-Maplins electrolytics onto my motherboards, they work just fine - you don't need to use surface mount caps if you don't want to.

You should have your 600 up and running again in no time, I reckon!

I guess it could be time for a "re-cap"... so I have to open the A600 up AGAIN.

[Loedown]

Originally Posted by e5frog

Perhaps I'll start out by trying another power supply. I have one with an annoying buzz as well...

The annoying buzz is almost always caused by the transformer coming loose in the power supply and it buzzes with a 50 / 60 Hz hum depending on where you are. The best solution for this problem is simply to use two minute Araldite to glue the transformer back into the casing properly, this is also the problem with some coils / chokes in TVs, you just coat the whole thing with Araldite and they stop humming, to determine if it's really the problem, use a screwdriver and place it on the case, if the buzzing disappears with a little pressure or greatly changes, then you know you've found the issue.

[e5frog]

OK, now if I only know what Araldite was... Since that's a brand of products and not a product itself.

http://www.priceinspector.co.uk/p/araldite/f/desc,True/


Can't find any "two minute" but there's 5 minute "Araldite Rapid", I'm guessing it's just plain two part epoxy - like Plastic Padding Super Epoxy:
http://www.henkel.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg...ID=1000000JB30

So if I open it up while "hot" it should get quiet if I press the transformer with lets say a piece of plastic foam?

[e5frog]

I took a peek and it's the iron core transformer that buzzes, is it enough to smear the iron pieces with epoxy on the outside or does the copper wires inside also make the buzzing sound - should I squirt as much as I can inside it as well?

Any idea how high temperature it needs to be able to cope - the epoxy that is?

[Loedown]

You just need to cover the thing in the epoxy resin, as long as the windings are in some way attached to the framework it will be fine. The reason it resonates is that the windings have slightly come away from the iron core, or it's slightly loose inside the plastic frame as I said earlier.

http://www.selleys.com.au/Selleys-Ar...r/default.aspx

This above is a two part resin, has two syringes filled with the two components which should be mixed and then placed over the transformer. Keep the wiring section clear of the resin and the screws too, once it sets it will not come off. To tighten the screws and to make sure they don't come undone either use a screw thread Loctite product or nail polish on the nuts and some part of the screw shaft.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tree_trunks/4130797537/

Like that only use less.

[Hewitson]

Tell your friend to look at the capacitors under the disk drive, and replace any that look remotely dodgy (or all of them anyway - there's not many) over the whole board. I just soldered some 10p-from-Maplins electrolytics onto my motherboards, they work just fine - you don't need to use surface mount caps if you don't want to.

Yet more bad advice from someone who knows nothing about electronics.

If its an SMD cap, replace it with one for gods sake. Holes are not put on the board for fun, they are there for a reason.

[Loedown]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Yet more bad advice from someone who knows nothing about electronics.

If its an SMD cap, replace it with one for gods sake. Holes are not put on the board for fun, they are there for a reason.

It's always the old thing of people trying to save a buck and wondering why their 'repair' lasts for less time than it takes to shower.

[Hewitson]

I'd say its just incompetence. The SMD cap would be cheaper!

[e5frog]

Originally Posted by Loedown

To tighten the screws and to make sure they don't come undone either use a screw thread Loctite product or nail polish on the nuts and some part of the screw shaft.

I'm familiar with Loctite, no use to have it anywhere but on the thread.

Why not use Araldite Ultra Clear on the screws as well?

I can't find any good place to buy it though, seems like it's an Aussie phenomenon?

Plastic Padding Super Epoxy can only take about 70 °C - so Araldite Ultra Clear seems like a better alternative as it can take 100 °C... I guess I have to look for something that can take a little more heat, I think that would be better in the long run.

Originally Posted by Hewitson

If its an SMD cap, replace it with one for gods sake. Holes are not put on the board for fun, they are there for a reason.

Well, it's not that hard surface mounting a cap that was meant to be mounted in holes.

It would not look as good though. And you may run out of height... I guess there's a reason why there are both types of caps in there. ;-)



I'm thinking of desoldering some caps and measure them instead of just start to swap all of them, it seems to be a likely fault since I have the same behavior with the other power supply (it could have been a cap in the power supply as well).

Any ideas where to start? I have marked the caps with numbers in the picture, I'm guessing it could be in group 1 where the power "comes in". 2 is perhaps just for the composite video signal, 3 is for the audio I'm guessing... So perhaps 4, 6, 7 and 8 - or slam into group 1 right away?

[Loedown]

Originally Posted by e5frog

Why not use Araldite Ultra Clear on the screws as well?

If you ever need to take it apart again for some reason, Loctite will come off, Araldite won't.

[e5frog]

I won't need to take the actual iron core transformer apart - would I? The one that's pictured in #9 above... I don't see much use using Loctite anywhere else - like on the screws that hold the plastic cover together.

It didn't sound much when I had put it back together after taking that picture - but I know what to do if it starts again. I'll use the switched version for now - as that didn't seem to be the problem anyway. It's stronger on the 5V but weaker on the +12V, my peripherals mostly use 5V anyway I think. SRAM card in PCMCIA slot, CF adapter and CF card for harddrive, mouse and an RGB SCART cable...


... and I can't really find any of this to buy anywhere
http://www.selleys.com.au/Selleys-Ar...r/default.aspx

...

[Loedown]

Originally Posted by e5frog

I won't need to take the actual iron core transformer apart - would I? The one that's pictured in #9 above... I don't see much use using Loctite anywhere else - like on the screws that hold the plastic cover together.

It didn't sound much when I had put it back together after taking that picture - but I know what to do if it starts again. I'll use the switched version for now - as that didn't seem to be the problem anyway. It's stronger on the 5V but weaker on the +12V, my peripherals mostly use 5V anyway I think. SRAM card in PCMCIA slot, CF adapter and CF card for harddrive, mouse and an RGB SCART cable...


... and I can't really find any of this to buy anywhere
http://www.selleys.com.au/Selleys-Ar...r/default.aspx

...

I'd be happy to send you some tubes of Araldite, just for cost and postage.

The reason behind not Aralditing the screws is that if you ever wanted to get the transformer rewired or repaired, sometimes it may be necessary, transformar cores have a nasty habit of rusting. Just borrow your wife / girlfriend / mother nail polish and put a dab on each nut / screw point to make a seal between the two.

[e5frog]

That sounds great, you can send a PM with price, do you use PayPal?

[e5frog]

I have a defect A600, boxed - perhaps I can swap caps with that...

[Loedown]

Originally Posted by e5frog

I have a defect A600, boxed - perhaps I can swap caps with that...

Think for a second that one board is as old as the other, if caps are gone in one does it not stand to reason that the caps will be shot in the other too most likely?

A new set of caps will set you back about $15 AUD and about 1 hour of time.