CD32 & 4th Gen Chipset?

[eXeler0]

Having seen most Dave Haynie (& others) videos on youtube about the Commodore years I have a pretty clear picture of a lot of stuff that went along. However the early development of the CD32 is -to me anyway- shrouded in mystery.
The thoughts of the management and down to the engineers.. How much did they know about the competitors..? What was their shortt term goal, vs long term commitment etc.. (ye we've heard some early CD64 ideas, but that I think came afterwards, once they realize the situation they were in) If anyone has any info about this it would be an interesting read..

However, looking back at it, one can't help thinking that Commodore never intended to put a single dollar beyond what was necessary to get the CD32 to market. It must have been "going south" already so they only wanted to cash in as much as possible on the current in-house tech without *any* thought about the upcoming competition and where this would put them over time.. It really was a 1200+CD in a new case and nothing more that would in any way be forward thinking.

@Old_Bob The reason I think it wouldn't have mattered in the long run is that even the superior Saturn struggled against the Playstation and they had the entire Sega arcade legacy to promote it..
Maybe it could have changed the course of history slightly, but in the end, Commodore as a company did not have the right people at the top to deal with the changes in the market in the mid 90s...

[AdvanceFollow]

Originally Posted by Gzegzolka

Cd32 could be more successful as an console if it was made and release two years earlier (A1200 too) plus have more dedicated games, both exclusive ones and standard floppy games that fit console gaming but with more improvements. Also cd32 should be bundled with better games, I have no idea why Commodore pick Dangerous Street.
So we start to dreaming about alternative past, all those "what if" scenarios are very interesting
Cd32 could not win with PSX or Saturn when all those 3D games start to gain more popularity, it was not strong point of its hardware. I have strong feeling that Cd32 as console could be successful only if Commodore rather then making A600, A500+ jump to A1200.
So what is a good time to introduce games on CDs? Could those two years be too early?

I agree. By 1993, Commodore were behind by about 2 years. That may not sound like much today since the technological evolution has slowed down, but in the early 90's, it was an eternity. The CD32 wasn't a bad idea, it was just released at the wrong time.

If the CD32 had come out instead of the CDTV in 1991, it would have been much more attractive. In 1991-92, the competition was the SNES and Genesis (Megadrive). By 93-94, when the CD32 came out, it was the 3DO, 32X, plus the Playstation and Saturn were just around the corner.

Ironically, the CD32 was probably the best 16-bit console, with a huge library of potentially compatible Amiga games that could have been ported over. But by 1993-94 Doom had come out and people wanted 3D games, not old 2D games. The CD32 was of course ill-suited for 3D because of the weak CPU, slow memory and lack of support chips for 3D.

IMO, the ideal timeline (for consumer hardware) would have been:
Late 1990 - Release Amiga 600, at lower cost and called by its actual name A300
Early-Mid 1991: Instead of the A500+, release Amiga 1200 as a replacement for the A500
Late 1991 (in time for holidays): CD32

Even delaying the CD32 to the holidays 1992 might have been OK, in order to wait for CD-ROM prices to come down (and possibly fit an extra 1 - 2 MB of Fast RAM), but late 1993 was simply too late.

This might have generated enough money to give them a breather, and fund R&D for Hombre and a real competitor for the fifth console generation (Playstation etc.) by 1994-95.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Having seen most Dave Haynie (& others) videos on youtube about the Commodore years I have a pretty clear picture of a lot of stuff that went along. However the early development of the CD32 is -to me anyway- shrouded in mystery.
The thoughts of the management and down to the engineers.. How much did they know about the competitors..? What was their shortt term goal, vs long term commitment etc.. (ye we've heard some early CD64 ideas, but that I think came afterwards, once they realize the situation they were in) If anyone has any info about this it would be an interesting read..

However, looking back at it, one can't help thinking that Commodore never intended to put a single dollar beyond what was necessary to get the CD32 to market. It must have been "going south" already so they only wanted to cash in as much as possible on the current in-house tech without *any* thought about the upcoming competition and where this would put them over time.. It really was a 1200+CD in a new case and nothing more that would in any way be forward thinking.

@Old_Bob The reason I think it wouldn't have mattered in the long run is that even the superior Saturn struggled against the Playstation and they had the entire Sega arcade legacy to promote it..
Maybe it could have changed the course of history slightly, but in the end, Commodore as a company did not have the right people at the top to deal with the changes in the market in the mid 90s...

I should imagine they had plans with the lower cost circuit boards to make a console cd based machine before the A1200 came out, but your right about them making it as cheap as possible, I remember in early 93 there were rumours of it being £199 at launch, so it was a bit meh when the rrp came up at £299, but in hindsight it was still cheaper than the £410 Megadrive, Mega cd combo.
As for competition, well it was probably in its infancy in early 1992 so bar the already failing cdi and yet to be released Mega cd there was no other competition in the cd market.

[MigaTech]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

As for competition, well it was probably in its infancy in early 1992 so bar the already failing cdi and yet to be released Mega cd there was no other competition in the cd market.

What about the Neo Geo CD and that Japanese effort that claimed it was before the CD32 for the Worlds first 32Bit CD based console?

Both of those were 4th Gen consoles wasn't they? So I guess fit the competition stat's, albeit the Neo was on 68000 CPU.

Originally Posted by AdvanceFollow

IMO, the ideal timeline (for consumer hardware) would have been:
Late 1990 - Release Amiga 600, at lower cost and called by its actual name A300
Early-Mid 1991: Instead of the A500+, release Amiga 1200 as a replacement for the A500
Late 1991 (in time for holidays): CD32

I agree with you on this one. Only those of us who have memories of receiving an Amiga 500 Plus for Christmas 1991, would be deprived of this wonderful moment, if they had of chosen this route.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

What about the Neo Geo CD and that Japanese effort that claimed it was before the CD32 for the Worlds first 32Bit CD based console?

Both of those were 4th Gen consoles wasn't they? So I guess fit the competition stat's, albeit the Neo was on 68000 CPU.

.

The NeoGeo CD came out in 1994 in Japan and 1995 in Europe (£400), Plus it was technically 16bit, though they marketed it as 24 bit by adding processors together.

[MigaTech]

Yeah I thought it was too late for that console, specially with its already antiquated hardware. What's your take on that other console that claimed was before the CD32 for the Worlds first?

Do you agree they were the first and was it better than the CD32?

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Yeah I thought it was too late for that console, specially with its already antiquated hardware. What's your take on that other console that claimed was before the CD32 for the Worlds first?

Do you agree they were the first and was it better than the CD32?

It only had a 16bit external data bus on its cpu, so it’s always something argued just like the Jaguar really being 64bit.

Nice machine, though as only Japanese release not enough varied titles for more liking and at £600 at launch was twice the price.

[illy5603]

I don't think a new chipset would have mattered. The CD32 both benefited and suffered due to the existence of the Amiga computer line. On one hand the system arrived with a large library of games, on the other hand, developers were not going to go the extra mile for the CD-32 version of any existing games and in a lot of cases (I'm looking at you Elite II) the CD-32 ports were worse than the computer versions. The fact is that most CD-32 Games were simply auto-booting versions of games already available for the Amiga line of computers. This was not the case with the other console systems.

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by illy5603

I don't think a new chipset would have mattered. The CD32 both benefited and suffered due to the existence of the Amiga computer line. On one hand the system arrived with a large library of games, on the other hand, developers were not going to go the extra mile for the CD-32 version of any existing games and in a lot of cases (I'm looking at you Elite II) the CD-32 ports were worse than the computer versions. The fact is that most CD-32 Games were simply auto-booting versions of games already available for the Amiga line of computers. This was not the case with the other console systems.

They were going to go the extra mile though, it’s just they took a lot longer to make, have you seen the cancelled games list? Lots of CD only games, all canned because of Commodore going under, only ports were commercially feasible after that news.

[MigaTech]

Even titles like MICROCOSM didn't help in the end. Sure it was great graphics but that was about it. The programmers thought, lets just concentrate on the graphics and forgo the game play quality!

Shame really, because this video game could of been one of the best ever.

[illy5603]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

They were going to go the extra mile though, it’s just they took a lot longer to make, have you seen the cancelled games list? Lots of CD only games, all canned because of Commodore going under, only ports were commercially feasible after that news.

I think that still reinforces my point that it really wouldn't have made a difference. The development cycle took too long for it to make a difference. By the time any of these, theoretically, superior CD-32 Specific games would have hit the market you would either be bumping up against the commodore closure or the Playstation. There is nothing in Commodore's R&D pipeline that would have held the Playstation at bay.

P.S. The best part of the Amiga CD32 story is all of the recent support everyone has been giving it so thanks!

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by illy5603

P.S. The best part of the Amiga CD32 story is all of the recent support everyone has been giving it so thanks!

Amen!!! Thank you Amigajay and earok

[BippyM]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Even titles like MICROCOSM didn't help in the end. Sure it was great graphics but that was about it. The programmers thought, lets just concentrate on the graphics and forgo the game play quality!

Shame really, because this video game could of been one of the best ever.

I remember shadow of the beast being a bit like that!

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by illy5603

I think that still reinforces my point that it really wouldn't have made a difference. The development cycle took too long for it to make a difference. By the time any of these, theoretically, superior CD-32 Specific games would have hit the market you would either be bumping up against the commodore closure or the Playstation. There is nothing in Commodore's R&D pipeline that would have held the Playstation at bay.

P.S. The best part of the Amiga CD32 story is all of the recent support everyone has been giving it so thanks!

Oh yeah for sure nothing would have stopped the PlayStation train, but I still feel the CD32 could have gained a much better install base by the end of 1994 with the imminent launch of enhanced cd games, it’s such a damn shame that even 6 months later a lot of these games like Cyberwar, World Cup Golf, Megarace, Lost Eden would have been launched and more people would have taken notice and bought one.
Don’t forget 16bit machines like the snes and Megadrive were still in shops with new games until around 1996-7, there was room for two levels of gamer, just like 8bit computers were selling well even with 16bit machines out.

I’ve said this before but when Commodore knew AAA was going to be delayed, instead of hacking together and releasing AA machines they should have kept with their flagship computer the A500 which was selling over a million units a year in 1991 (before they confused the mainstream consumer with two models) but instead keep cost reducing it (which is what the A300/600 was meant to do but instead came out costing more) until 1994/5 when the AAA/Hermes would have dropped.
And yes a Saturn specced low cost computer would have its own niche market place even against the PS, but that’s another story, gone off skew a bit

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Yeah I thought it was too late for that console, specially with its already antiquated hardware. What's your take on that other console that claimed was before the CD32 for the Worlds first?

Do you agree they were the first and was it better than the CD32?

You are thinking of the Japanese-only FM Towns "Marty" console, on paper they did beat the CD32 by half a year or so but this was in the veeery early days of internet so no one here in Europe heard about it.. ;-)
The Marty was a rather strange console as it used a 386 CPU, only one to do that and AFAIk it wasn't until the original Xbox a console used an x86 chip. Overall it was fairly comparable to a CD32 in terms of graphics and sound (on paper, even better) but in fact clealry too expensive, so it never made a dent in Japan where the PC engine CD-ROM combo (Turbo Duo) had been available for a quite a while.

So no, the Marty never had a chance either ;-)
The timing, 3d capability and pricing of the Playstation were all perfect and the rest is history ey ;-)

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by MigaTech

Even titles like MICROCOSM didn't help in the end. Sure it was great graphics but that was about it. The programmers thought, lets just concentrate on the graphics and forgo the game play quality!

Shame really, because this video game could of been one of the best ever.

Microcosm is basically a disguised rail shooter with pre-rendered graphis - and Philips CD-i had already proved that genre is not a big console seller.. It looks nice when running in demo mode on trade shows, but usually gets old after 10 mins of actual gameplay ;-)

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by illy5603

---><8
P.S. The best part of the Amiga CD32 story is all of the recent support everyone has been giving it so thanks!

Lol yes, and now if we can have a Vampire 4 card + rizer to hide in inside the CD32 we'll be able to play Quake 2 on it, suck on that Sega Saturn ;-)

[OmegaMax]

FM Towns "Marty" console

Manufacturer Fujitsu
Type Home video game console
Generation Fifth generation (32-bit/64-bit era)
Release date

JP: February 20, 1993

Discontinued

JP: 1995

Units sold 45,000 (as of December 31, 1993)[1]
Media CD-ROM, 3½-inch floppy disks
CPU AMD 386SX processor (32-bit) @ 16 MHz (3.6 MIPS[5])
RAM

Main RAM: 2 MB (2048 KB)
Video RAM: 640 KB (512 KB VRAM, 128 KB sprite RAM)[6]

Graphics

GPU: Fujitsu custom graphics chip
Display resolution: 256×240, 256×256, 320×240, 352×232, 360×240, 512×480, 640×200, 640×480, 720×480[7]
Bitmap background planes: 1 (with sprite plane) or 2 (without sprite plane)
Virtual resolution: 256×512, 512×256, 512×512, 640×819, 1024×512[7]
Color palette: 4096, or 32,768, or 16,777,216[7][8]
Colors on screen: 16, or 256, or 32,768
Sprite foreground plane: 256×240[7] to 640×480 resolution, 256 colors on screen, out of 32,768 color palette
Hardware integer zooming: 1/2× vertical, 1/2/3/4/5× horizontal[9]

Sprites Up to 1024 sprites, 16×16 pixels sprite size, 16 colors per sprite[9]

[DamienD]

...there are definitely some very cool games on the FM-TOWNS computer & Marty console. Especially all the LucasFilm / LucasArt games

I used to be an avid collector, see here for my list: Anyone here owns a Fujitsu FM Towns Marty?

[OmegaMax]

I'd be interested in any programming information on the FM-TOWNS,but I'm assuming if there was it would be in japanese which I don't read.