Amiga OS 4.x, is the dream over?

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by jPV

Then I don't understand why you used it as an argument at the first place?

Argument? For what? 3.1.4 is not an argument for anything. I do not state that this a prime example of ongoing development. It is a bugfix that went slightly overboard.

Originally Posted by jPV

I somehow "read between the lines" that you haven't even tried these things on MorphOS, because you don't seem to know even basic things about it. It really sounds that you're just making assumptions.

No, I did not. I do not care, really. I don't have the hardware for it, I do not plan buying it, and thanks, I already have a working machine right now. Actually, multiple.



There is no problem Os4 or Morpos or AROS could solve for me.

Originally Posted by jPV

You don't think it's practical for me if I do all my daily computing on it? Well then, I don't know what to say anymore, really.

Look, what is practical for you? Browsing the web, reading emails. Yes. Can I do that on NG machines? No. Or with so many restrictions that I could hardly call this "practical".


Again, I do not say that this is anyone's fault. It is just the way how the technology evolved, the speed in which it evolves, and the unavailability of manpower. But then why pretend that the machines have a practical value?

Originally Posted by jPV

Is there something wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing. Look, you can be sentimental about anything you like, and I am certainly not going to tell you want you should do and what not. I am just stating that I do not get it.

Originally Posted by jPV

What can be such a milestone anymore any case?

What qualifies a milestone? PC-wise, the rise of the internet, multi-core processing, to name two that we missed. I was also impressed by the first Unix workstation I used as I could kill processes without having to reboot the system. But I see nothing really impressive about the PPCs whatsoever.

Originally Posted by jPV

Isn't it good enough that it makes a good continuation?

Oh, I am not suggesting to stop anyone from developing anything. That is an individual choice, so do what you like to do. I am just saying that I don't see a point. I neither see a point in people collecting stamps, but that doesn't stop them from doing it either. However, I understand that this (stamp collection) defines a viable market, so there is a business model. For the NGs, I neither see a point, nor do I recognize a substantial market that would qualify as a business.



I am just making the statement that the market for PPC is small, and shrinking, and from a business perspective, I don't see any. I am only saying that I am not sentimental about NG in any particular way, and I do not understand how people could as I do not see anything impressive technology-wise.

[jPV]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Argument? For what? 3.1.4 is not an argument for anything. I do not state that this a prime example of ongoing development. It is a bugfix that went slightly overboard.

So why did you bring 3.1.4 into the discussion when I was talking about unreliable patches people use in OS3 setups, that aren't needed in NG systems anymore because systems offer the same functionality built-in?

No, I did not. I do not care, really. I don't have the hardware for it, I do not plan buying it, and thanks, I already have a working machine right now. Actually, multiple.

So please could you stop telling people that things can't be done on it, if you even don't know that.

Look, what is practical for you? Browsing the web, reading emails. Yes. Can I do that on NG machines? No.

You're doing it again. Why on earth you couldn't browse the web or read emails on NG machines? Of course you can and I've always been doing that on them. Please stop spreading lies.

But then why pretend that the machines have a practical value?

Because they do for some people even if it isn't for you.

Absolutely nothing. Look, you can be sentimental about anything you like, and I am certainly not going to tell you want you should do and what not. I am just stating that I do not get it.

I would hope the case would be this, but you're just talking too much bs and try to affect other peoples' opinions with false statements.

But I see nothing really impressive about the PPCs whatsoever.

I don't see other CPU architectures that impressive either, and after all this isn't about the processors but operating systems. I don't care on which CPU my OS runs until I like the OS and it does what I need.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by jPV

Why on earth you couldn't browse the web or read emails on NG machines? Of course you can and I've always been doing that on them. Please stop spreading lies.

Let's be honest here, you can browse the web on AmigaOS4/MorphOS only if you carefully pick the sites you want to visit.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by jPV

So why did you bring 3.1.4 into the discussion when I was talking about unreliable patches people use in OS3 setups, that aren't needed in NG systems anymore because systems offer the same functionality built-in?

Because it's the choice of the people to install patches, not mine. If they want to install unreliable patches, they will continue to do so, no matter what anyone says, or no matter what the Os delivers. It is the way how the classic system "works", just to the disappointment of its developers.


It is not the Os that is unreliable. It is the people that do unreliable things.

Originally Posted by jPV

So please could you stop telling people that things can't be done on it, if you even don't know that.

Oh, really. There is a web browser on NG that supports javascript, encryption, and is decently fast?

Originally Posted by jPV

You're doing it again. Why on earth you couldn't browse the web or read emails on NG machines? Of course you can and I've always been doing that on them. Please stop spreading lies.

Then you have probably low expectations. C'mon. Who is spreading nonsense here?



I understand, really, that you are attached to the stuff. But please don't tell me that a slow PPC can browse the web decently, with no active software in continuous development, with the technology changing in a cycle of months.


I do have a 233Mhz G3 Mac. Not for Morphos, not for Os4, really. But the speed is... not all impressive. Even with four times the power, it would be all not usable, and there is at least the chance to a get a browser that is updated monthly. Unlike the NGs.

Originally Posted by jPV

I would hope the case would be this, but you're just talking too much bs and try to affect other peoples' opinions with false statements.

Look, really, I understand that you're a fan. Please, by all means, be realistic for a time being.

Originally Posted by jPV

I don't see other CPU architectures that impressive either, and after all this isn't about the processors but operating systems. I don't care on which CPU my OS runs until I like the OS and it does what I need.

Err... The CPU does matter, as it defines the performance limits of a system. Which are quite narrow for PPC, in particular for web applications. Certainly a lot narrower for the 68k, obviously. And if the CPU does not matter, well, why are you so attached to PPC? Use a decent CPU.

[Pyromania]

The idea of competing with or beating Windows or Mac feature for feature is not wise. The Amiga is something different. Maybe it always was. The Amigas market can grow and blossom without trying to make it like Windows or Mac.

[coldacid]

Originally Posted by Pyromania

The idea of competing with or beating Windows or Mac feature for feature is not wise. The Amiga is something different. Maybe it always was. The Amigas market can grow and blossom without trying to make it like Windows or Mac.

100% this. Not everyone "needs" nor wants all the cloud nonsense and everything else that's absolutely modern and connected. Some of us find that what we want to do on a computer at home can be done just fine by an Amiga, either 68k or PPC. NG doesn't have to be bleeding-edge modern, and in fact it's pretty disingenuous of certain people in this thread constantly insinuating that it has to be with their comments.

[jPV]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

It is not the Os that is unreliable. It is the people that do unreliable things.

Yes exactly, and this is where NG excels, they offer much more for users in a reliable way.

Oh, really. There is a web browser on NG that supports javascript, encryption, and is decently fast?

Of course Javascript is supported, and openssl and certificate bundle gets updated regularly etc. HTTP/2 and TLS1.3 support was added some time ago too. HTML5 tests gave better scores than Firefox etc on mainstream systems back then when we got these more modern browsers. Even though there is a transition period with the engine now, but it's still much much better than it was ever with those non-CSS classic 68k browsers.

Speed isn't what you get on mainstream of course, but still ok especially if you don't have too low end machine. Addition of JIT into JavaScript engine also made it a bit faster.

I understand, really, that you are attached to the stuff. But please don't tell me that a slow PPC can browse the web decently, with no active software in continuous development, with the technology changing in a cycle of months.

At least in the MorphOS Team, there's constant updating of the browser. curl, ffmpeg etc parts are constantly ported from the latest mainstream sources.

I do have a 233Mhz G3 Mac. Not for Morphos, not for Os4, really. But the speed is... not all impressive. Even with four times the power, it would be all not usable, and there is at least the chance to a get a browser that is updated monthly. Unlike the NGs.

No NG machine is that slow and there isn't support for G3 CPUs, and even if you multiply that by four, you end up a low end NG machine. Most NG machines people really use are something like between 1.xGHz and 2.7GHz. G4, G5, or equal. And these Amigaish operating systems are MUCH snappier than OSX/Linux which you probably have tried on that dog slow machine of yours, even video playback etc is much worse on OSX than on MorphOS on the same machine.

And if the CPU does not matter, well, why are you so attached to PPC? Use a decent CPU.

I'm not attached to PPC, I'm attached to MorphOS. When MorphOS will be available for x64, I don't have a problem to switch there either.

[Pyromania]

On a Amiga X5000 I never found speed to be an issue. It seems fast enough.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by jPV

Yes exactly, and this is where NG excels, they offer much more for users in a reliable way.

You have a strange definition what "more" means. As far as the software basis is concerned, the 68K delivers "more" in terms of Amiga software. As far as productive software is concerned, up to date systems deliver "more" by a margin.


Browsers... Thanks, just what I thought. Thus, not suitable for productive work.

Originally Posted by jPV

I'm not attached to PPC, I'm attached to MorphOS. When MorphOS will be available for x64, I don't have a problem to switch there either.

By all means, be. But don't try to evangelise me, this will not work. It is a lost attempt.

[jPV]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

But don't try to evangelise me, this will not work. It is a lost attempt.

Wouldn't cross my mind.

[ealm]

Originally Posted by coldacid

Not everyone "needs" nor wants all the cloud nonsense and everything else that's absolutely modern and connected. Some of us find that what we want to do on a computer at home can be done just fine by an Amiga, either 68k or PPC. NG doesn't have to be bleeding-edge modern, and in fact it's pretty disingenuous of certain people in this thread constantly insinuating that it has to be with their comments.

If NG includes a Win98 PC from 1999, sure. But then we have a completely different definition of what "NG" means. But it doesn't change the fact that most people probably wants a web browser more modern than what any Amiga-like system can provide today. Facebook, Youtube, Google docs just aren't a pleasant experience on AOS4 or MOS.

[ma693541]

I agree ealm and no matter what browser I use on a Amiga-like system, I can't use it for my weekly bank account management.

[James]

Originally Posted by ealm

If NG includes a Win98 PC from 1999, sure. But then we have a completely different definition of what "NG" means.

Your definition is completely wrong. To be NG it only has to be more advanced than its previous incarnation, not anything/everything else (NG Amiga not NG computer).

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Because it's the choice of the people to install patches, not mine. If they want to install unreliable patches, they will continue to do so, no matter what anyone says, or no matter what the Os delivers. It is the way how the classic system "works", just to the disappointment of its developers.


It is not the Os that is unreliable. It is the people that do unreliable things.

That reminds me a little bit of "you are holding it wrong".

I know what you mean, but on the other hand OS 3.x was not really usable without patches for the last 30 years - at least for me.
And my soft-kicked A3000 gave me the opportunity to include most patches in the Kickstart, which I did since the 90s...

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by coldacid

100% this. Not everyone "needs" nor wants all the cloud nonsense and everything else that's absolutely modern and connected.

well - I see it a little bit different. The "cloud" make the Amiga more useful than ever, since you can delegate jobs to a much more powerful server.
Even browsing on a modern browser at top speed is possible ... you just need VNC. All it lacks is maybe a more seamless integration ...

There are different types of "clouds" and you can make it private and secure and adjusted to your needs. With the right tools even on a slow machine running a cumbersome OS like ours you can do now virtually everything.

[blatboy]

Originally Posted by ma693541

I agree ealm and no matter what browser I use on a Amiga-like system, I can't use it for my weekly bank account management.

Hahah. Heck, sometimes that won’t even work in the most bleeding edge release of Safari.

[utri007]

Originally Posted by britelite

Let's be honest here, you can browse the web on AmigaOS4/MorphOS only if you carefully pick the sites you want to visit.

Thats not true. My Amiga OS4 machine is my man cave's internet machine, I mainly use it web surfing and download "things" for my other retro machines. Never ever needed to use Windows or other mainstream machine for that.

[britelite]

Originally Posted by utri007

Thats not true. My Amiga OS4 machine is my man cave's internet machine, I mainly use it web surfing and download "things" for my other retro machines. Never ever needed to use Windows or other mainstream machine for that.

Just because the sites you visit happen to work doesn't mean every other site will, and you know that.

[Retro1234]

What did happen with Timberwolf they just took the money and left people with a usable web browser?

The PPC hardware might not be that up to date but you can run Linux on it can't you and get a good web browser witch suggests OS4 isn't capable and if it can't do that........

[ma693541]

Originally Posted by blatboy

Hahah. Heck, sometimes that won’t even work in the most bleeding edge release of Safari.

WaterFox, an 64-bit browser based on FireFox have the same issue. Have to use Opera there.