07 May 2020, 10:17 | #101 |
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I agree 100% with Thomas Richter. OS4 and MOS fail to be both retro and modern, which makes them pointless for most people.
68k Amiga has a sentimental and historical value + lots of software. It will never be a substitute for modern OS:es but there is a big and seemingly growing retro computing market where it fits in. And it doesn't have to just get stuck in time, it can still be developed – but not with the aim of competing with Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android, iOS. The way forward for Amiga IMO is to develop and improve 68k while staying true to its nature. OS 3.2, AROS, Vampire and all expansions have a market. Those who wants to make a system as much NG as possible while still being Amiga'ish need to re-think their strategy. MOS hasn't seen any major upgrades since 2.0 twelve years ago, and OS4 hasn't seen major upgrades since 4.1FE six years ago. Maybe OS4, MOS and AROS could co-operate on a successor to OS4 and MOS. Do the Apple/Darwin thing with an open source kernel + core parts of the OS which stays in AROS and then develop closed source interface, apps etc using whatever code useful from OS4/MOS. The core OS team would triple in size compared to current situation and the rest of the team doubles. Choose the architecture wisely – most likely ARM is the best bet being cheap, generic, widely adopted and still more than fast enough. Last edited by ealm; 07 May 2020 at 10:30. |
07 May 2020, 10:30 | #102 | ||||||||
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And the lack of raw performance also limited possibility to write certain kind of software by anyone.. for example media players, heavier image processing, and games too. Quote:
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You can't see difference if you're running a PPC native or 68k program under these systems. They all look like native programs and operate in the same environment. 68k programs use the same API, libraries, etc as the PPC programs too, and they get advantage of the faster and updated system components. ARexx etc work between 68k and PPC programs and so on. You get new features to old 68k programs when, for example, MUI gets new features (no need to tell about the recent shaky MUI ports to 68k). You can even use 68k libraries, devices, shell commands, datatypes, and other system components under the NG OS if it's missing a native version. So, actually the software base is larger on NG in this regard, because it can use both 68k and native ones. Quote:
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07 May 2020, 10:36 | #103 | ||
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Last edited by jPV; 07 May 2020 at 10:48. |
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07 May 2020, 10:42 | #104 | |
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07 May 2020, 11:06 | #105 |
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In which areas particularly you think the gap has widened?
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07 May 2020, 11:07 | #106 | |
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And I share the view that NG is not modern enough to attract more people because it has all the limitations from the past because otherwise the 68k integration would not work the way you like currently. We will see what will happen after ISA change to AMD64 (whenever this will be) and if the Morphos devs manage to keep the feeling you currently like. BTW the big break should have happen from day one, NG should have been really NG and not just "OS3 running native on PPC" (to overdo a little) Today it is too late for that in my view. The behavior of average users has changed a lot, people use devices for certain tasks and a modern OS has to adapt to different sizes like smartphone, tablet or desktop. 64bit support, full memory protection and SMP are mandatory anyway. And additional there is a lot of competition with different options as OS, countless different hardware combinations and so on. A different world. We will see how the morphos team reacts on that and how much "amiga" feeling will be left then |
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07 May 2020, 11:15 | #107 | |
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But... I do not think there is interest and now all platforms are heading in different directions. Years ago when saying that even the "research OS" has some areas where it was more advanced than even MorphOS I got bashed by morphos users that morphos would not benefit from that because it is lightyears ahead from anything else and too good for this world That lead to my conclusion to never propose that in future and aros should do its own thing ignoring the other camps Last edited by OlafSch; 07 May 2020 at 12:16. |
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07 May 2020, 11:29 | #108 | |
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it is not only about having driver for modern graphic cards and support modern standards f.e. for 3D, people today have a lot of content in cloud solutions (Apple, Google and so on). Partly the interfaces to those clouds are closed so I do not see how that can be solved. And of course you need a modern browser who is constantly updated. That would require a lot of manpower to do, not just one time (first port) but all the time. |
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07 May 2020, 11:40 | #109 |
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Twelve years ago what most users required was a modern web browser, a .doc-compatible word processor, a .xls-compatible spreadsheet program, a video player, a PDF viewer and a basic but modern image manipulation program. What's been added to the list of basic needs since then is all the cloud services and integration with smartphones. For example Google drive/iCloud with its connected office suite, advanced photo album applications to sync and manage everything that's shot on your smartphone, SMS integration, phone call integration, copy-n-paste between laptop and smartphone, notes app and to do lists that sync between laptop and smartphone. Etc etc.
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07 May 2020, 11:42 | #110 | ||
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It is both. It is a missed market but it's a missed market because it's a chicken and egg scenario and as was true even in the 80's it's all about the software. No software, no one buys it, no one buys it no software. It was on its death bed long before then. Hell it's one of the reasons the Amiga initially struggled and even before then Commodore were struggling because they were making new machines that didn't run anything that had come before and so people were starting from scratch. It took the Amiga hardware being *cheap* to get a foothold in the marketplace. Which is why RPi is popular, it's cheap and also backwards compatible as well as running loads and loads of software with relatively little effort. Quote:
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07 May 2020, 11:46 | #111 |
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The only realistic way to do it with limited resources might be to very much deviate from the Amiga way and make an Amiga like Linux distro with a Workbench like (but more modern) window manager, UAE seemlessly integrated, maybe some Amiga API:s rewritten one by one.
That way you get all the modernities through native Linux apps, but at the same time you can Amiga'ize it step by step. At first it would probably appear like not much more than an Amiga-skinned Linux, but over time it really could be transformed. Like Android for example which has a very distinct feeling today even though it's basically Linux and macOS though it basically used to be NeXT/BSD. Many 68k MacOS users were of course furious at first, having their darling OS replaced by a clunky and incompatible UNIX system. |
07 May 2020, 11:47 | #112 |
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07 May 2020, 11:53 | #113 | |||
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On 3.1.4:
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That was nobodies fault, of course. It was just too late, and the lack of CBM being able to adapt to the changing market and changing demands. |
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07 May 2020, 13:11 | #114 |
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I see a point in 3.1.4 that I don't in 4.x. As the thread about 3.2 says, there are 35 year old bugs that are being fixed. As and when I get a ROM switcher that will fit I intend to install it to my A500+.
I can forgive 3.x a lot of things because of its age and the hardware it's been designed for and where it's come from. I can't forgive 4.x for the same. |
07 May 2020, 13:24 | #115 | ||||
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07 May 2020, 13:31 | #116 | ||
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07 May 2020, 13:37 | #117 |
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Quite a lot of 68k software touches the hardware directly and will therefore not run on a machine that doesn't have or emulate it. That makes the software base actually smaller on NG - yet on emulators such software will still run.
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07 May 2020, 13:42 | #118 |
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At least all the libaries, commands, etc that I have needed, have worked under MorphOS without problems. So it seems that this kind of stuff mostly behaves well and doesn't hit hardware.
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07 May 2020, 13:45 | #119 | |
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And that's my point! The gap was smaller 12 years ago than what it is today.
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And now we're just talking the basic stuff and workflow. On top of that of course comes a lot of more niche programs that you can get for Windows/Mac/Android/iOS which you will struggle with finding an alternative for if you go MOS or OS4. Unless you have huge resources an alternative OS can only compete feature-wise if it's based on Linux or BSD (like even macOS, iOS and Android are). |
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07 May 2020, 13:49 | #120 |
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