Was anyone else disappointed with the A1200?

[NorthWay]

Originally Posted by roondar

True, a chunky display can save up to 1/4th of the bandwidth for cookie cut bobs in the optimal case.

It should _always_ save 1/4th if you can use the (rather safe) assumption that a chunky pixel with all bits clear means select source instead of bob. If you want something ZX Spectrum like with a mask around the bob then you would need as much bandwidth.
The optimal case however depends and memory width, blitter width, the number of parallell blitter units, and if you can have dynamic memory access sizing. I.e. no "zero" pixels in the bob data you read can simply convert the cookie-cut into a copy plus pointer advance. (Note that this does not work if you want to blit from a backup buffer to the viewed buffer, then we are back to 1/4th.) Then depending on circumstances you can juggle bus sizing to maximize the number of conversions.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by NorthWay

It should _always_ save 1/4th if you can use the (rather safe) assumption that a chunky pixel with all bits clear means select source instead of bob.

This is only true if the chunky pixel is the same size as the bus, otherwise you are wasting bandwidth to do this. That was more or less the point I made in the explanation that followed the bit you quoted.

If you want something ZX Spectrum like with a mask around the bob then you would need as much bandwidth.
The optimal case however depends and memory width, blitter width, the number of parallell blitter units, and if you can have dynamic memory access sizing. I.e. no "zero" pixels in the bob data you read can simply convert the cookie-cut into a copy plus pointer advance. (Note that this does not work if you want to blit from a backup buffer to the viewed buffer, then we are back to 1/4th.) Then depending on circumstances you can juggle bus sizing to maximize the number of conversions.

I’m certain that planar blits can be made more efficient with tricks like the above as well. However, using the way that (soft) bobs actually were implemented in the real world means none of the above applies and my point remains valid.

As I’ve pointed out before, I don’t consider adding new hardware to one side of this comparison but not do the same for the other a fair way of comparing these things.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

I honestly don't believe the A1200 caused Commodore's bankruptcy. They were in trouble long before that.

Agreed. They were in trouble even before the A1000 was released.

How do we know? They pushed the A1000 out long before it was finished. It was another 2 years before they were able to provide a finished design (A500/A2000). Meanwhile PCs were strengthening their stranglehold on the marketplace, and even Commodore joined in - competing against their own product!

I think the success of the C64 and A500 deluded Commodore into thinking they could get away with wasting money on designs that were unlikely to be commercial successes. The CDTV, A3000, AAA chipset etc. were attempts to break out of the low end home computer market that they were stuck in with the A500, but they all failed. By 1991 the cracks were already showing, and PCs were about to squash all competition. At least we can thank them for coming to their senses in time to get the A600, A1200 and CD32 out.

Looking further back we see a plethora of machines many of which were not successful, including some you probably never heard of. So Commodore had a long history of failures, but managed to survive due to a few successes - until the 90's when that way of doing business didn't work anymore. And they weren't the only ones. Even IBM (the 800-pound gorilla in the room) couldn't survive against the clones.

Only Apple managed to squeak through, by aggressively differentiating themselves from PCs. While their machines were technically inferior (less power for the price), They managed to convince people to buy their products based on aesthetics and usability.

Yesterday I was given the task of trying to repair an iMac G4 (AKA the 'iLamp'), or if that failed to remove the hard drive and wipe it. What a nightmare! In this machine the power supply is split into two sections inside the circular base, with the hard drive and CDROM stacked up in the middle and the motherboard screwed in from below. This has to be one of the most ludicrous designs ever! And yet that probably helped to sell it.

If Commodore had aggressively marketed the Amiga's differences right from the start rather than fretting about PC compatibility, and concentrated on gaming and high-end video applications, they have might have made it through. But if they did that we probably wouldn't have gotten the machines we love. In some ways I think it was better that they didn't just produce what would be most profitable for them.

Seeing inside that iMac quelled any desire I had to own one. I am now thinking of selling all the other retro computers I have that are just sitting on the shelf (literally!) gathering dust, and putting the money towards a Vampire 1200. After 27 years the A1200 is finally fulfilling its promise!

I do agree that not having fast ram slots was a huge oversight. The Atari STe, a machine with a very similar form factor to an A1200, was able to fit them in. Let's face it, there's room in the case for them. Commodore were just being tightasses, as usual.

If you wanted RAM on the motherboard you could buy an A4000. The real tightasses were the buyers, and Commodore knew this - which is why they made the base A1200 as cheap as possible but easily expandable. Putting RAM slots on the motherboard would have raised the price and become a problem when faster accelerator cards were used.

And these people have no business being anywhere near a computer. It is the fault of people like this, that computers and operating systems are so dumbed down and designed for the complete moron.

I disagree. Having an intuitive OS that doesn't require technical skill to operate is not 'dumbing it down'. Modern computers are powerful enough that there is no reason they shouldn't present a user interface simple enough for anyone to understand and use without training. This was one of the Amiga's strengths compared to PCs, and also a major reason for Apple's success. I cringe when being told to type some arcane command into the CLI, or having to read a 500 page manual just to figure out what a program does. In the old days we put up with that nonsense because there was no alternative, but it's inexcusable today.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

The A1200 didn't cause Commodores bankruptcy. The reason is well known, it was due to a patent dispute that Commodore didn't pay which meant a US court put a hold on the remaining CD32 stock being released for sale.

This may have been the final nail in the coffin, but as I said previously, they were in trouble long before that.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

No matter what people think of the machines themselves, the combined sales of A1200 and CD32 were ok, the PS1 was still a year off, but in all honesty, it would have been a delay into them going under because management was happy to pay themselves top dollar for not delivering top dollar performance.

Agreed, and no matter what CBM did with the 1200, the PC and PSX still would have killed it.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

And where are the SIMM sockets going to go on the board? Yes they could have fitted them, but the only space is where the expansion boards go underneath, which would have removed further expansion.

There's a reasonable amount of free space on the board. If it was designed more efficiently I have no doubt they could have squeezed at least a couple of SIMM slots in.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Commodore should have at least have designed and released cheap expansion ram boards either complete or with simm sockets on them, but they seemed to figure (quite correctly) that after market companies would sort that.

They probably should have, but even if they did, they probably would have sucked.

Originally Posted by Foebane

The many accelerator cards that came out for the A1200 also came with lots of RAM as an integral part of the upgrade, and since the A1200 came with 2Mb of Chip RAM as standard AND it was the maximum the AGA chipset could use, then that was Chip RAM sorted for good and all the cards had to do was to provide Fast RAM. Result? Sorted!

But it wasn't sorted as very few people actually did this. If it came as standard, software would have been written to take advantage of it. Sadly, it rarely was.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

If you wanted RAM on the motherboard you could buy an A4000. The real tightasses were the buyers, and Commodore knew this - which is why they made the base A1200 as cheap as possible but easily expandable. Putting RAM slots on the motherboard would have raised the price and become a problem when faster accelerator cards were used.

The A4000 was completely unaffordable for most people. It was outrageously expensive for what it was, the money would have been much better spent on a 486 PC.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I disagree. Having an intuitive OS that doesn't require technical skill to operate is not 'dumbing it down'. Modern computers are powerful enough that there is no reason they shouldn't present a user interface simple enough for anyone to understand and use without training. This was one of the Amiga's strengths compared to PCs, and also a major reason for Apple's success. I cringe when being told to type some arcane command into the CLI, or having to read a 500 page manual just to figure out what a program does. In the old days we put up with that nonsense because there was no alternative, but it's inexcusable today.

Afraid I couldn't disagree more. The majority of my computer usage is still done in a terminal. I would argue that if you can't use a terminal, you can't use a computer.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Exactly. And these people have no business being anywhere near a computer. It is the fault of people like this, that computers and operating systems are so dumbed down and designed for the complete moron.

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Afraid I couldn't disagree more. The majority of my computer usage is still done in a terminal. I would argue that if you can't use a terminal, you can't use a computer.

What completely arrogant statements. You represent the very antithesis of Jack Tramiel's famous quote, and think that computers are for the classes and not the masses, eh?

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

The A4000 was completely unaffordable for most people. It was outrageously expensive for what it was, the money would have been much better spent on a 486 PC.

But the PC wouldn't be Amiga compatible!

At release the A4000 was competitively priced compared to name-brand PCs. So if you thought it would have been 'much better' to spend the money on a PC it's because you really wanted a PC anyway.

[mcgeezer]

Originally Posted by Foebane

What completely arrogant statements. You represent the very antithesis of Jack Tramiel's famous quote, and think that computers are for the classes and not the masses, eh?

Yeah, lets make computers as difficult to use for everyone. In fact fuck it, lets go back to the 70’s and 80’s and when you get a job in the the office you have to assemble your computer to use it.

Not everyone is technical, i liked nothing better than being woke up on standby at 3am by some twat saying a unix box had done a kernel panic and having to go in the office and boot the the fucker in to single use mode, use vi and fsck and then figure out what went wrong..... no fucking thanks!

Don’t get me wrong, there are some people who struggle with computers, my mother is one of them - but she is far from a moron.

The comment is stupid and indeed arrogant, but also disrespectful, i’ll bet hewitson wants the first thing kids to learn in school in IT is to open a bash shell and start writing a kernel driver.

[swinkamor12]

Commodore bankrupt because Amiga 1200 was underpowered overpriced shit that is too slow for 3D games.

Amiga 1200 was too slow because it has not

- chunky pixels
- slots for FAST RAM
- mmu to protect fire page of memory

All this Amiga 1200 should have for price Commodore ask for it in 1992.

There is no doubts that if Amiga 1200 will be not a shit Commodore will have two or three years more.
If Amiga 1200 will be not a shit Commodore will enough time to launch Hombre.
Nobody know if Hombre will be a failure or success. It may sell in big numbers.
Assuming that Commodore had to go bankrupt is pure propaganda bullshit and
pathetic try to excuse losers from Commodore.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by swinkamor12

Commodore bankrupt because Amiga 1200 was underpowered overpriced shit that is too slow for 3D games.

Amiga 1200 was too slow because it has not

- chunky pixels
- slots for FAST RAM
- mmu to protect fire page of memory

All this Amiga 1200 should have for price Commodore ask for it in 1992.

There is no doubts that if Amiga 1200 will be not a shit Commodore will have two or three years more.
If Amiga 1200 will be not a shit Commodore will enough time to launch Hombre.
Nobody know if Hombre will be a failure or success. It may sell in big numbers.
Assuming that Commodore had to go bankrupt is pure propaganda bullshit and
pathetic try to excuse losers from Commodore.

I thought I heard something?

My mistake, it was nothing.......

[phx]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

But the PC wouldn't be Amiga compatible!

At release the A4000 was competitively priced compared to name-brand PCs. So if you thought it would have been 'much better' to spend the money on a PC it's because you really wanted a PC anyway.

Exactly. I bought an A4000 early 1993 because it was compatible to my A1000, which I used since more than six years. The PCs of that time looked ridiculous in comparison. The OS (Win 3.1?) was crap, plug&play was non-existent, the architecture was based on an extended 1970s CPU which is a nightmare to code for, and it was obvious that you have to buy new PCs more often than new Amigas. In short: it was clear to me that I would have much more fun with an Amiga, which became true. I couldn't care less about one or two boring 3D games like Doom, when the Amiga had all the 2D games I loved.

Originally Posted by swinkamor12

Commodore bankrupt because Amiga 1200 was underpowered overpriced shit that is too slow for 3D games.

Nonsense.
As mentioned multiple times in this thread: do a 1992 comparison with PC hardware. The lack of 3D games was certainly not the reason for Commodore's demise.

Amiga 1200 was too slow because it has not

- chunky pixels
- slots for FAST RAM
- mmu to protect fire page of memory

Ahh... of course, the Fire page! Very important.

[d4rk3lf]

Let me ask one question to all of you.

Do you think A1200 is actually never being exploited to its full potential?

I am asking this, because we all know that Amiga 1000 was released in 1985, and Amiga 500 in 1987 (basically the same hardware), but it was not up until 1989/1990, and later yers, that many games started to use full power of those machines, and programmers found new tricks and ways to exploit hardware to it's maximum.
So, hypothetically, if Commodore didn't bankrupt, and A1200 repeated the A500 success, do you think that in 1995-1996, there will be games, that would be massive improvements, over the best A500 games?

[sandruzzo]

I repeat one more time: why don't do some sort of hack into Winuae, if not to much difficult to do, in order to see, if chunky diplay, full speed cpu access to chip would have been the difference?

[vulture]

@d4rk3lf

I think Reshoot R is the first game taking AGA to its limits and it's mightily impressive at that!

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

Let me ask one question to all of you.

Do you think A1200 is actually never being exploited to its full potential?

I am asking this, because we all know that Amiga 1000 was released in 1985, and Amiga 500 in 1987 (basically the same hardware), but it was not up until 1989/1990, and later yers, that many games started to use full power of those machines, and programmers found new tricks and ways to exploit hardware to it's maximum.
So, hypothetically, if Commodore didn't bankrupt, and A1200 repeated the A500 success, do you think that in 1995-1996, there will be games, that would be massive improvements, over the best A500 games?

The only way we would have seen "massive" improvements was if hard drives became more the norm, but unless there was a cheap, and I mean CHEAP CD-ROM solution, then no.

We needed a cheap CD-ROM solution so software companies could actually distribute the killer A1200 games the machine needed to continue, because even an OCS/ECS game like Monkey Island 2 came on 11 disks, imagine how many disks for a 256 colour VGA conversion to AGA with speech...... 50+ disks?

If there had been a cheap CD-ROM solution for A1200 that was as cheap as a second floppy drive, that would have helped massively, and then offering a hard drive install solution for those that had one would have speeded up loading from CD-ROM, but either way, it would probably have meant Lucasarts and Sierra stuck with the Amiga longer and ported VGA stuff over knowing the Amiga could run it virtually untouched without having to get artists to touch up the graphical assets.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by vulture

@d4rk3lf

I think Reshoot R is the first game taking AGA to its limits and it's mightily impressive at that!

[ Show youtube player ] certainly looks very nice, but not my cup of tea, even back in the day when the Amiga games market was already saturated with shooters of the same limited, on-the-rails, learn-the-patterns kind. But, it's certainly inventive with its visuals, that's for sure.

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

The only way we would have seen "massive" improvements was if hard drives became more the norm, but unless there was a cheap, and I mean CHEAP CD-ROM solution, then no.

Well, by the 1995-96, HD and CD Roms were pretty common, even for the dying Amiga. When I bought (my parents) A1200 in 1996, after a few months me and my brother managed to save money for both CD Rom and HD, even in my country, that was devastated with economic sanctions, and very poor.
I am talking about 3.5 HD's, not 2.5 (that were pretty expensive).
If I recall correctly, the bigger problem was an insufficient power supply from A1200 to drive both HD and CD-Rom, and some hardware hacks must be made.

But yes, I think that HD and CD-rom in 1995-6, would be massive among A1200 users. Maybe even C= would make some of their cheap versions or adapters.

Thanks for the answer.

[anachronicus]

While certainly not a perfect machine, the A1200 when it came out was my favorite Amiga. Of course, I was coming from an unexpanded A500, and I never had any of the big box Amigas. But I loved my A1200, and it was my only computer until I could no longer get parts or find a local shop to repair it. Even now, decades later, I still have two of them, one of them towered, knocking around. It will always be my favorte machine.

[CrazyPepsi]

What about banshee was it not aga ?

[d4rk3lf]

Originally Posted by CrazyPepsi

What about banshee was it not aga ?

It was AGA.
What about your question?
Was it (not) related to this thread?

[CrazyPepsi]

Originally Posted by d4rk3lf

It was AGA.
What about your question?
Was it (not) related to this thread?

haha i was thinking loud