Why is kickstart not freeware? - Page 2

Graham Humphrey · 22 July 2007, 16:16

Not sure how easy/practical that would be, and anyway, I'm sure the powers-that-be wouldn't take too kindly to it.

Zetr0 · 22 July 2007, 16:22

arguably, its not their work it would be independent work, the original KS only took 3 months to write, and that was one person.

Graham Humphrey · 22 July 2007, 16:24

True but it'll still be a "copy" of it, as it were, it'll do the same things. That's why I think they won't like it, though I'm not sure legally where you would stand in this situation.

eLowar · 22 July 2007, 16:43

I'll admit I have no real clue, but I believe no reverse engineering whatsoever can legally be involved in an endeavor like that. That is if you want to release it to the public. Beyond that I believe "doing the same things" is perfectly fine, you're just not allowed to look at the actual original kickstart roms while writing the new code.

Yes, yes, I'm sure there are many more legal subtleties involved and I may be wrong altogether. But hey, it increases my post count.

Graham Humphrey · 22 July 2007, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eLowar

But hey, it increases my post count.

Disgraceful behaviour eLowar! You'll never catch me posting just to increase my post count. Nope. No way. Never.

Zetr0 · 22 July 2007, 19:30

nor me... an absolute abhorent behavour, that i detest

Marcuz · 22 July 2007, 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by OddbOd

Gak! I didn't realise you guys have already been down this road before with the same unspectacular result.

and many, many more times. it's a recurring nonsense, in my humble opinion.

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

True but it'll still be a "copy" of it, as it were, it'll do the same things. That's why I think they won't like it, though I'm not sure legally where you would stand in this situation.

Actually i dont think they could do much about it. The same thing sort of happened to IBM and their original PC Bios back in the early 80's. A load of other manufacturers/campanies like Compaq, etc got there engineers/programmers to study carefully the original IBM PC Bios without ever looking at the code. Then they coded up their own custom bios that worked in a similar if not the same as the original PC Bios. Hence why IBM lost control of the PC world and you got all these compatibles. Sure the same could go for Amiga Kickstart?

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 00:36

yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC#The_IBM_PC_concept

"Other manufacturers soon reverse engineered the BIOS to produce their own non-infringing functional copies. Columbia Data Products introduced the first IBM-PC compatible computer in June 1982. In November 1982, Compaq Computer Corporation announced the Compaq Portable, the first portable IBM PC compatible. The first models were shipped in March 1983."

eLowar · 23 July 2007, 00:44

Hmm, what were the rules about reverse engineering again then? I'm pretty sure there was something.

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 00:47

heres another link:

http://www.macintouch.com/pchistory.html

@eLowar

Not to sure about the rules. I think they got away with it i think IBM did take them to court). We got IBM compatibles so they must have avoided any infringement.

mrbob2 · 23 July 2007, 00:52

Welcome to NBC news, this just in. Forget the war in iraq, apparently someone has illegally downloaded off the net a copy of a kickstart rom from the 80s classic "amiga computer". Due to huge financial losses due to this theft the owners of amiga are now persuing the death penalty............and now over to washington where a mr bush`s poodle has got stuck up a tree..............

Graham Humphrey · 23 July 2007, 00:53

Point well made

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 00:54

!rofl!

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 00:54

Blame Zetr0!

eLowar · 23 July 2007, 00:57

Quote:

Prior to Phoenix, IBM threw the weight of their enormous legal muscle against anyone who cloned the BIOS in their PC. Phoenix did a clean room design. None of the programmers working on the Phoenix BIOS had ever seen the IBM PC BIOS. In fact, Phoenix went out of their way to hire programmers who had never even worked on the 8088/8086 processor chips used in early IBM PCs.

But that alone might not have sufficed. IBM could have tied them up in legal restraining orders, etc. and watched them go bankrupt while the case inched its way through the US court system.

The real genius, was the Phoenix had a huge legal insurance policy through Lloyd's of London. This gave Phoenix the ability to survive such an attack. As a result IBM didn't sue Phoenix and once the proverbial cat was out of the bag, they didn't sue most other BIOS clone produces unless they were outright copies.

Quote:

They had an engineer(s) write specs based on the either the source code or possibly their own disassembly of the IBM BIOS, then handed that off to different set of engineers to create their own non-infringing code.

So that's the answer, funny programming practices and good legal insurance.

CU_AMiGA · 23 July 2007, 01:00

yep! case closed!

*bangs the hammer* mods lock this thread please!

(anyway. i'm off to bed now! chow!)

ant512 · 23 July 2007, 01:13

They do the same thing with Linux device drivers. Split the developers into two teams; get one lot to disassemble the code to see how it works and write a complete spec, then get the other team to write the software based on that spec. In at least one instance that I know of this has resulted in the Linux driver being written better than the original, since hardware companies rarely expend much effort on their drivers.

P-J · 15 August 2007, 16:31

In a line :

It's totally fucking bobbins, and I'll happily download/spread them for free anyway.

gulliver · 16 August 2007, 06:12

who own amiga kickstart rom rights?

Well, Amiga Inc, in first place, a long time ago then they allowed these companies:

Village Tronic
Eyetech
Power Computing
Softhut
Macrosystem
Cloanto

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
A1200 Kickstart 3.1 - Light gray screen before Kickstart	Sallinen	support.Hardware	7	21 November 2008 21:22
The best freeware 2007	frikilokooo	Retrogaming General Discussion	0	16 January 2008 20:30
Real3D - freeware?	zevs	request.Apps	1	27 November 2007 15:35
Xpedition PD/Freeware	s2325	request.Old Rare Games	2	21 November 2006 14:06
PD/Freeware games	NPI	HOL contributions	0	23 December 2004 12:26

22 July 2007, 16:16	#21
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,168	Not sure how easy/practical that would be, and anyway, I'm sure the powers-that-be wouldn't take too kindly to it.

22 July 2007, 16:22	#22
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	arguably, its not their work it would be independent work, the original KS only took 3 months to write, and that was one person.

22 July 2007, 16:24	#23
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,168	True but it'll still be a "copy" of it, as it were, it'll do the same things. That's why I think they won't like it, though I'm not sure legally where you would stand in this situation.

22 July 2007, 16:43	#24
eLowar Citizen of Elthesh Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: UK Posts: 949	I'll admit I have no real clue, but I believe no reverse engineering whatsoever can legally be involved in an endeavor like that. That is if you want to release it to the public. Beyond that I believe "doing the same things" is perfectly fine, you're just not allowed to look at the actual original kickstart roms while writing the new code. Yes, yes, I'm sure there are many more legal subtleties involved and I may be wrong altogether. But hey, it increases my post count.

22 July 2007, 19:30	#26
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	nor me... an absolute abhorent behavour, that i detest

23 July 2007, 00:36	#29
CU_AMiGA Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Exeter Age: 39 Posts: 970	yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC#The_IBM_PC_concept "Other manufacturers soon reverse engineered the BIOS to produce their own non-infringing functional copies. Columbia Data Products introduced the first IBM-PC compatible computer in June 1982. In November 1982, Compaq Computer Corporation announced the Compaq Portable, the first portable IBM PC compatible. The first models were shipped in March 1983."

23 July 2007, 00:44	#30
eLowar Citizen of Elthesh Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: UK Posts: 949	Hmm, what were the rules about reverse engineering again then? I'm pretty sure there was something.

23 July 2007, 00:47	#31
CU_AMiGA Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Exeter Age: 39 Posts: 970	heres another link: http://www.macintouch.com/pchistory.html @eLowar Not to sure about the rules. I think they got away with it i think IBM did take them to court). We got IBM compatibles so they must have avoided any infringement.

23 July 2007, 00:52	#32
mrbob2 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: sheffield Posts: 332	Welcome to NBC news, this just in. Forget the war in iraq, apparently someone has illegally downloaded off the net a copy of a kickstart rom from the 80s classic "amiga computer". Due to huge financial losses due to this theft the owners of amiga are now persuing the death penalty............and now over to washington where a mr bush`s poodle has got stuck up a tree..............

23 July 2007, 00:53	#33
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,168	Point well made

23 July 2007, 00:54	#34
CU_AMiGA Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Exeter Age: 39 Posts: 970	!rofl!

23 July 2007, 01:00	#37
CU_AMiGA Banned Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Exeter Age: 39 Posts: 970	yep! case closed! bangs the hammer mods lock this thread please! (anyway. i'm off to bed now! chow!)

23 July 2007, 01:13	#38
ant512 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: California Posts: 965	They do the same thing with Linux device drivers. Split the developers into two teams; get one lot to disassemble the code to see how it works and write a complete spec, then get the other team to write the software based on that spec. In at least one instance that I know of this has resulted in the Linux driver being written better than the original, since hardware companies rarely expend much effort on their drivers.

15 August 2007, 16:31	#39
P-J Registered User Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Moorpark, California Age: 44 Posts: 1,153	In a line : It's totally fucking bobbins, and I'll happily download/spread them for free anyway.

16 August 2007, 06:12	#40
gulliver BoingBagged Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The South of nowhere Age: 46 Posts: 2,358	who own amiga kickstart rom rights? Well, Amiga Inc, in first place, a long time ago then they allowed these companies: Village Tronic Eyetech Power Computing Softhut Macrosystem Cloanto

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)