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Old 24 December 2004, 00:25   #1
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Lightbulb Kickstart ROM Question...

Was wondering if anybody could answer this question for me...

The distribution of the Kickstart images is illegal and people here are against requests for Kickstart images (just read another thread that's how I got the idea to post this question)...Was wondering why, since AFAIK neither new software nor hardware is being produced...

Now of course it is illegal to copy those ROMs but it is also illegal to copy any other Amiga software regularly requested here unless the copyright holder permits distribution...

Even if we assume that Cloanto or whoever uses the profits from the sales of ROM images to enhance future Amiga products (which are ?), they rely on WinUAE or other emulators...Do they support those projects financially from sales ? Is it ethical to sell a product (and expect somebody to pay for) that is mainly used to run illegal copies of software from other companies ?

An interesting question I think, maybe somebody can help me understand....
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Old 24 December 2004, 01:51   #2
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http://www.back2roots.org

http://www.caps-project.org

http://www.whdload.de

What a *Stupid Question*, someone close this thread!

Last edited by alexh; 24 December 2004 at 10:00.
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Old 24 December 2004, 02:11   #3
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Originally Posted by alexh
What a Dick, someone close this thread!
No need to close the thread, nothing wrong with debating why you cannot request roms
 
Old 24 December 2004, 02:39   #4
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Originally Posted by alexh
Excuse me ?
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Old 24 December 2004, 10:20   #5
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Sorry about my SNAP reply, but you must have known the answer to most of your questions before posting...... didnt you?

Quote:
Was wondering why [KS isnt free], since AFAIK neither new software nor hardware is being produced...
Because a lot of hardwork went into creating the ROMS, people were paid to do it, and the company which paid for them (and subsequent companies which paid for the rights) want to make a profit on their investment.

Quote:
Now of course it is illegal to copy those ROMs but it is also illegal to copy any other Amiga software regularly requested here unless the copyright holder permits distribution...
But as you know some hard working people in the Amiga community have managed to get a lot of the copyright holders to do just that (Back2roots).

Quote:
Is it ethical to sell a product (and expect somebody to pay for) that is mainly used to run illegal copies of software from other companies ?
You are assuming that everyone does this and runs illegal copies of software. I am just pointing out that a lot of companies have released their software (back2roots), People have made legal backups of their own software (CAPS, WHDLoad). And a few people (like myself) dont want to play games, they just want to watch the demo's that were released.

Quote:
Even if we assume that Cloanto or whoever uses the profits from the sales of ROM images to enhance future Amiga products (which are ?)
But you should know that Amiga / KMOS (who make profits from licensing KS) have made some attempt to make new products, (they did for a while?) pay for OS4 development at Hyperion, they paid for an office, salaries for several employees, sponsored shows etc. OK so it hasnt worked out but that was always a possibility.

You KNOW why the owners to the rights of AmigaOS (Kickstart) wont release it. I dont understand why you started this thread?

The only interesting bit was

Quote:
[Cloanto] rely on WinUAE or other emulators...Do they support those projects financially from sales ?
I've always wondered that, ask Toni? They also include WinFellow etc. That aside they DID pay for the development of AmiExplorer which is a great bit of software. An alternative to AmigaSamba / PC2Amiga for transferring files to and from the Amiga. The only option for Vanilla 2Mb Amiga's with Network cards.
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Old 24 December 2004, 10:43   #6
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AlexH, your reply was overly curt and unhelpful.

I think HCF's question was quite a valid one.

You say hard work went into making the Kickstart..... I suppose hard work didn't go into making games that people on here regularly spread around for all to use?

Seeing as HCF is a new user to this forum, I hardly think replies such as yours are particularly helpful. The guy asked a simple question, if you cannot be bothered to reply to a simple question without resorting to ridiculous replies, please don't bother!

And your assertion that he knew the answers before he asked is also a bit ridiculous.

Personally, whilst people are happy to copy games for others, all this clandestine rubbish about not spreading the Kickstart ROMS is just that.... rubbish!
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Old 24 December 2004, 10:44   #7
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Originally Posted by alexh
Sorry about my SNAP reply, but you must have known the answer to most of your questions before posting...... didnt you?

Because a lot of hardwork went into creating the ROMS, people were paid to do it, and the company which paid for them (and subsequent companies which paid for the rights) want to make a profit on their investment.

But as you know some hard working people in the Amiga community have managed to get a lot of the copyright holders to do just that (Back2roots).

You are assuming that everyone does this and runs illegal copies of software. I am just pointing out that a lot of companies have released their software (back2roots), People have made legal backups of their own software (CAPS, WHDLoad). And a few people (like myself) dont want to play games, they just want to watch the demo's that were released.

But you should know that Amiga / KMOS (who make profits from licensing KS) have made some attempt to make new products, (they did for a while?) pay for OS4 development at Hyperion, they paid for an office, salaries for several employees, sponsored shows etc. OK so it hasnt worked out but that was always a possibility.

You KNOW why the owners to the rights of AmigaOS (Kickstart) wont release it. I dont understand why you started this thread?

The only interesting bit was

I've always wondered that, ask Toni? They also include WinFellow etc. That aside they DID pay for the development of AmiExplorer which is a great bit of software. An alternative to AmigaSamba / PC2Amiga for transferring files to and from the Amiga. The only option for Vanilla 2Mb Amiga's with Network cards.

What a *boring/expected/heard a million times before reply* Somebody close this thread ! ZZzzzZZ
 
Old 24 December 2004, 10:57   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
Sorry about my SNAP reply, but you must have known the answer to most of your questions before posting...... didnt you?
Not really (if I knew the answers, why would I ask ? )...I just saw a post in a different section and it made me think...Don't think insults prove anybody's superiority or that a point is more valid...Really never thought about this question and just accepted it as a given that different sites have different views on this matter...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
Because a lot of hardwork went into creating the ROMS, people were paid to do it, and the company which paid for them (and subsequent companies which paid for the rights) want to make a profit on their investment.
Well, that is true for any commercial product, the question is though, is the old Kickstart really still a true investment ? As far as I know (I might be wrong here) there is no new development of Amiga hardware, so where is the money being generated with ? Selling Amiga emulators ??


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
But as you know some hard working people in the Amiga community have managed to get a lot of the copyright holders to do just that (Back2roots).
Yes, I am aware of that site and of course I already mentioned software that has been cleared for free distribution. There are a lot of other abandonware sites with similar content that don't seem to check whether or not a game has been released...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
You are assuming that everyone does this and runs illegal copies of software. I am just pointing out that a lot of companies have released their software (back2roots), People have made legal backups of their own software (CAPS, WHDLoad). And a few people (like myself) dont want to play games, they just want to watch the demo's that were released.
Correct me if I am wrong but WHDLoad modifies the program code ? Already a violation (actually debugging it is) of most licenses ! Not trying to be smart but just find it hypocritical how some people (probably you too !) think there is a difference between say game x and Kickstart ROM....
Plus not really a lot of new software being released...Just look in the Zone here and you will find not only B2tR titles...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
But you should know that Amiga / KMOS (who make profits from licensing KS) have made some attempt to make new products, (they did for a while?) pay for OS4 development at Hyperion, they paid for an office, salaries for several employees, sponsored shows etc. OK so it hasnt worked out but that was always a possibility.
Honestly, the A1200 was the last Amiga for me and I didn't care anymore because the Amiga was doomed at the time anyway and PCs were the future...My point though was that no Amigas will be made anymore, whether that is a good thing or not (I think it is because the newer Amigas just went further away from what I liked) and why is not that important...Maybe there will be an AmigaOne one day but until then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
You KNOW why the owners to the rights of AmigaOS (Kickstart) wont release it. I dont understand why you started this thread?
Of course they won't release it because they own the rights and nobody gives up anything like that for no reason (except for a few idealists, maybe if a developer reads this and still has a backup they could leak it ?!)...The point is, why does it matter if they release it ? Other companies did not release their software either and it is available on the net, so where is the difference ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
The only interesting bit was

I've always wondered that, ask Toni? They also include WinFellow etc. That aside they DID pay for the development of AmiExplorer which is a great bit of software. An alternative to AmigaSamba / PC2Amiga for transferring files to and from the Amiga. The only option for Vanilla 2Mb Amiga's with Network cards.
Well, that was another thing I was wondering about...Without WinUAE nobody would want the ROMs or anything anyway and they are living off people who actually put many hours into a program that is free...How long until the copyright expires, anybody knows ? The original ROM is from 85/86 so should not be that much longer and the newer (2+) ROMs aren't really that important to most people who want to emulate an Amiga for games...
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Old 24 December 2004, 11:44   #9
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Quote:
The point is, why does it matter if they release it ? Other companies did not release their software either and it is available on the net, so where is the difference ?
Because it's still a nice little earner. KS3.1 ROMS are still the no.1 upgrade for Amiga's and they get a license fee for each one (cept home burnt ones), they get a license fee from Cloanto (if not for each copy then a flat fee). As much as we'd like to think of the Amiga as being a hobby-ist free platform, to some it's still a buisness. Do you not think? I do, but then I iz stoopid

I dont think that anyone got into Amiga to make a quick buck, and if they did I think they had a big shock. This small but steady revenue stream is but one of the things (the others being patent revenue, Trademark licensing etc) that helps keep whomever owns Amiga copyrights going.

Quote:
Already a violation (actually debugging it is) of most licenses ! Not trying to be smart but just find it hypocritical how some people (probably you too !) think there is a difference between say game x and Kickstart ROM....
There will always be people who want something for nothing. And yes I was one of those people when I was a kid Do you not feel that there may be a *little* difference between the two? You cannot (necessarily) buy game x anywhere except maybe Ebay (and then the developers still dont get any money) however if you buy kickstart / AOS then at least someone gets paid and there is a *CHANCE* of it doing some good? Maybe I am an idealist.

Quote:
Without WinUAE nobody would want the ROMs or anything anyway and they are living off people who actually put many hours into a program that is free
If it is truely like that then I totally agree.... Hmmm I am wondering if you can sell an emulator without licensing the hardware? I bet that Toni couldnt sell WinUAE even if he wanted to without a license from Amiga / KMOS. Remember the Bleem / VGS stuff?

Quote:
How long until the copyright expires, anybody knows ?
A quick search on google says "Copyrights after 1978 last for 95 years" so that's what 2080

Last edited by alexh; 24 December 2004 at 11:53.
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Old 24 December 2004, 11:59   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
Because it's still a nice little earner. KS3.1 ROMS are still the no.1 upgrade for Amiga's and they get a license fee for each one (cept home burnt ones), they get a license fee from Cloanto (if not for each copy then a flat fee). As much as we'd like to think of the Amiga as being a hobby-ist free platform, to some it's still a buisness. Do you not think? I do, but then I iz stoopid

I dont think that anyone got into Amiga to make a quick buck, and if they did I think they had a big shock. This small but steady revenue stream is but one of the things (the others being patent revenue, Trademark licensing etc) that helps keep whomever owns Amiga copyrights going.
Must be extremely small considering I doubt Amigas are used outside of maybe a few video editing places or TV stations (not sure if TV Guide has switched hardware yet everywhere...)


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
There will always be people who want something for nothing. And yes I was one of those people when I was a kid Do you not feel that there may be a *little* difference between the two? You cannot (necessarily) buy game x anywhere except maybe Ebay (and then the developers still dont get any money) however if you buy kickstart / AOS then at least someone gets paid and there is a *CHANCE* of it doing some good? Maybe I am an idealist.
Doubt you are doing any good by wasting money..If there was development of any kind or a future but the way it seems emulation is the only thing that's going on...



Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
If it is truely like that then I totally agree.... Hmmm I am wondering if you can sell an emulator without licensing the hardware? I bet that Toni couldnt sell WinUAE even if he wanted to without a license from Amiga / KMOS. Remember the Bleem / VGS stuff?
Should be no problem but I am not a legal expert...Personally I would require a fee for the distribution of ROMs with WinUAE....


Quote:
Originally Posted by alexh
A quick search on google says "Copyrights after 1978 last for 95 years" so that's what 2080
Bummer....
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Old 24 December 2004, 12:17   #11
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Must be extremely small
Heh, yeah I bet it is small... but I dunno what VALID patents Amiga own that produce revenue. It cannot be that much or the latest Amiga venture wouldnt have gone tits up. I bet it's not so insignificant to an individual though... I'd guess (and it's just a guess) five figures per annum

Quote:
Doubt you are doing any good by wasting money..
You really look at it like that?
Quote:
If there was development of any kind or a future but the way it seems emulation is the only thing that's going on...
For the majority I agree. I use the Amiga mainly for Nostalgia purposes (dont you?) the SMALL amount of development I do is unpaid and for fun. I dont think there will be any real *paid* development for the Amiga again.... except maybe in hardware & Hardware drivers for the PCI stuff / Catweasel etc. Just MHO.

Quote:
Should be no problem but I am not a legal expert...
I know you need a license to make reproduction hardware (such as the C64 & Joysticks recently sold) so I'd guess it cuts both ways.
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Old 24 December 2004, 12:25   #12
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Yes, you can sell any emulator that is based on publically available documents or reverse-engineering. it is a software product, as soon as it was a hardware product replicating the original hardware the legal standpoint would be slightly different.
There are zero, nada etc documentation on ps1 that was meant to be public in any way that was the problem, nothing else. You develop for a console through licensing the development including documentation under NDA.
This is not an issue with Amiga, it was publically documented in fact C= made some respectable companies like Addison-Wesley to publish books on amiga hardware and software architecture to promote and help development.
Any computers and system where documentation is publically available can be legally emulated by current laws.
This is very different for systems where development was for a closed circle only.
Also once you made a documentation public in any way its status is public for this matter you can't revoke it by changing your mind even if you wanted to, but you may choose not to publish publically about newer development issues.

And no, Toni does or anyone else does not get paid.
As for patensts and stuff almost all expired on amiga.
Besides many of them including the blitter hardware and other bits and bytes put C= into trouble being violations on someone else's work ath the time they were released
The ks is the result of roughly 3 months of development, and money made with it is not invested into anything whatsoever and never will be.
Games had more years of work invested into them quite often, so worshipping the ks is somewhat laughable, espeically keeping in mind that buying it does not help any other development.

I don't see people crying about games copied freely, so let's just don't be hypocrites at least at Christmas time

But that's not the point here.
We don't want to change your mind in any way, choose what fits you best.
We don't say anything about ks roms, because you can find and download them using google or buy them - it's your choice, not ours. Regardless, since amiga "companies" were made of blind idiots who worshipped the ks fanatically, the only develpment effort they made went into creating massive amount of bullshit for the masses, and trying to find sites supplying ks roms.
So mentioning those put sites into trouble.
We don't want any sort of trouble here, we are not idiots here or deluded people just want EAB to be a safe heaven of nostalgia, not politics and corporate shite or a zealot gathering.
You wanted the truth, you have the truth now. Can you handle it?

If you want it legally buy it, or download/dump the one in your machine. Not anything else exactly the same version.
If you are not that concerned just download anything you want.
None of the money goes to today's amiga development whatsoever.
If you actually want to help that, buy OS4 etc. - things that are being developed and actually some people even paid - minus the constant scandals of developers ripped off even in this small market, but that has never surfaced about Hyperion so they are good guys, unlike many of the others.
And I would say by buying the ks rom you actually help Mike to improve his products. He won't make a new kickstart or os for that matter don't you have illusions about that, but he may try to create some cool stuff that he can put on the cd as a gimmick while the money was actually spent on the "gimmicks" being produced - but many people just want the ks roms anyway
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Old 24 December 2004, 12:32   #13
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I take it all back about no-one being in the Amiga are for a quick buck

http://magnussoft.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id/137

They must have licensed Kickstart, peddling WinUAE too (plus whatever the MAC equivalent is) AND there are several PD games on here.

Trex Warrior - Thalion is PD only in England... I wonder if they'll get into trouble?

What is worse is they could have hired someone like any number of Amiga programmers pay them beer money for a couple of weeks and get them to produce new cracks from the original games but no... they are straight original cracks...they've all got the original cracktro's on them
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Old 24 December 2004, 12:45   #14
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And no, Toni does or anyone else does not get paid
If Amiga Forever was a serious money earner you think they'd hire anyone full time?
Quote:
If you actually want to help that, buy OS4 etc.
I wonder if there will be a push of PPC hardware, or an integration of something like PearPC into WinUAE on it's release?
Quote:
And I would say by buying the ks rom you actually help Mike to improve his products.
That was the point I was trying to make. You buy it from Cloanto and you keep them going a bit longer, you buy it from places like Vesalia or SoftHut you keep them going etc. BTW: Is 'Mike' the man who compiles the AmigaForever stuff?
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Old 24 December 2004, 12:56   #15
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There is no money to be made on amiga, period.
Having illusions about that is the biggest financial mistake you can make as many recent startups could tell as well by now
To be honest in this Christmasy New Honest Talk style (CNHT (TM) & (C) by IFW 2004): when you can get others work for free why bother paying them?
It can provide some earning for a person producing a cd and nice oddities he likes to do, but keeping a "real" company with anyone who does not own the company - ie does not work for free - of works for free in the first place is not possible.
Of course it would be nice to give away the money for Toni or anyone but if they wanted they could have asked I am syure Toni is fine with this as is.
But since UAE is GPLed anyone can sell it for any amount of money he wishes anyway without paying the authors.

And yes it's him
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Old 24 December 2004, 13:34   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HCF
How long until the copyright expires, anybody knows ?
It is complicated. It differs from country-to-country. It depends on what exactly what is copyrighted. It also changes a lot. It is an utter shambles basically, but in some respects it needs to be as it is.

In the UK, it changed in 1996, and then again in 2003 to comply with the EUCD so the following is probably also true for all European countries, or soon will be. Copyright expires in artistic works 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies. For sound recordings, films, broadcasts etc. it is different again. Previously, I *think* it was 50 years after the death of the author for everything. You can see more information on copyright in the UK here: http://www.intellectual-property.gov...t/how_long.htm

In the US things get worse, it has all the complications of the above, and it changes all the time. It is no coincidence that the copyright length coincides with the amount of time that keeps Mickey Mouse protected. I am not kidding. Anyway, some types of works the duration of copyright is 95 years from publication, and some it is 120 years from creation.

Basically, we are all likely to be dead for most things produced in our lifetime.
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Old 24 December 2004, 13:41   #17
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As for PPC, it will fly as all nextgen consoles, PS3, Xenon and possibly whatever N will put out will depend on it.
So pracitcally hundreds of millions of households will have ppc equipment - even though they would not be aware of that. It is upto freescale, ibm and partners to make that fact publicised enough.
Will that change the desktop market? Apart from price drops possibly no, since there are way too many applications that must be used in everday life and porting won't happen overnight, it is not a simply matter of recompilation, not to mention people who actually pay for software will not throw away thousands of dollars worth of software investment overnight and we are just talking about households, not companies.
If feasible emulation would happen, like ppc cpus with dual cores running x86 code natively without any drawback, the desktop market situation wold drastically change too.
We'll get back to this topic in 5-10 years
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