Warp3D, StormMesa, MiniGL/OpenGL, wazp3D, etc.

[Reynolds]

Does anyone knows, if there is any detailed article about these stuff?
I'd like to understand better how my 3D accelerated configs should have to work, what sw packages are needed for what, with bearing in mind if there is any attributes or settings which needs to be checked for stable operation.

I had issues way back with building a proper system but had no time/knowledge until now, and it would be useful, maybe for others as well.
I don't want to start making a clean WB install then messing up by accident or lack of knowledge at the end, at this point.
I also don't know the real difference about SMesa, GL and W3D, so any help I appreciate.

[Karlos]

So, at least as far as the non-Nova version of Warp3D I can fill a few blanks.

Warp3D is a hardware abstraction layer and associated set of drivers for accelerating rasrerisation. Specifically, drawing of depth sorted, textured, shaded triangles that are the typical end product of a 3D graphics pipeline. It doesn't do any of the actual 3D calculations involved in creating those triangles.

GL is a full stack 3D (also 2D) API that handles all the necessary calculations required for common 3D rendering, such as geometry transformation, lighting, etc. Implementations of GL include MiniGL and StormMesa. Both implementations make use of Warp3D to accelerate the final drawing stages, though StormMesa is able to use pure software rendering too.

[Karlos]

Wazp3D is a replacement for Warp3D that's useful under emulation. I believe it uses (or can use) the underlying native GL implementation to perform the drawing.

What would be cool (maybe this exists somewhere) is a similar implementation of either MiniGL or Mesa that, under emulation, talks directly to the host native GL/Vulkan to do the job.

[James]

You can use WOSprefs to configure Warp3D and StormMESA:

https://aminet.net/package/util/misc/WOSprefs

[Karlos]

If you have OS4.1 classic, it's possible to set per application Warp3D settings via ENV: that override the globals.

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Karlos

So, at least as far as the non-Nova version of Warp3D I can fill a few blanks.

Warp3D is a hardware abstraction layer and associated set of drivers for accelerating rasrerisation. Specifically, drawing of depth sorted, textured, shaded triangles that are the typical end product of a 3D graphics pipeline. It doesn't do any of the actual 3D calculations involved in creating those triangles.

GL is a full stack 3D (also 2D) API that handles all the necessary calculations required for common 3D rendering, such as geometry transformation, lighting, etc. Implementations of GL include MiniGL and StormMesa. Both implementations make use of Warp3D to accelerate the final drawing stages, though StormMesa is able to use pure software rendering too.

So if I understand correctly, these are not counterparts of each others, but relays from them, as all these are on a certain level within the system. I presume, if I would like to prepare a system with all possible solutions needed for any programs, I have to install all, obviously the latest / most stable selected...?

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Karlos

Wazp3D is a replacement for Warp3D that's useful under emulation. I believe it uses (or can use) the underlying native GL implementation to perform the drawing.

What would be cool (maybe this exists somewhere) is a similar implementation of either MiniGL or Mesa that, under emulation, talks directly to the host native GL/Vulkan to do the job.

As I'm not in emulation, then I can leave this out from my TODO list
Thanks anyway to give some help for understanding.

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Karlos

If you have OS4.1 classic, it's possible to set per application Warp3D settings via ENV: that override the globals.

I have, that also will be re-installed and I will then check that, thanks.

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by James

You can use WOSprefs to configure Warp3D and StormMESA:

https://aminet.net/package/util/misc/WOSprefs

Isn't it the same thing what I have already in my OS3.9? Can't recall exactly but I know there is some kind of prefs editor tool there.

[Reynolds]

In the meantime one specific issue came to my mind. When I try to start a W3D-using program (like glQuake, or some WOS scenedemos) a new screen opens up but then it changes to grey, then nothing else happens. I bet there is some trivial reason why that happens, but never really had chance to identify it...

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Reynolds

In the meantime one specific issue came to my mind. When I try to start a W3D-using program (like glQuake, or some WOS scenedemos) a new screen opens up but then it changes to grey, then nothing else happens. I bet there is some trivial reason why that happens, but never really had chance to identify it...

First of all, which graphics card are you using, how much memory does it have, what is the size and depth of your workbench screen and the resolution you are trying to use for quake?

When in doubt, it's generally better to start windowed it your workbench screen is a compatible RGB mode already.

[Reynolds]

It is valid not just for Quake, but for other W3D stuffs as well.
I have an 1024x786 WB with 16 screendepth, having a CVisionPPC in that config.
For Quake I've set 640x480.

[Karlos]

Originally Posted by Reynolds

It is valid not just for Quake, but for other W3D stuffs as well.
I have an 1024x786 WB with 16 screendepth, having a CVisionPPC in that config.
For Quake I've set 640x480.

So, you only have 8MB of video ram. Your WB screen is already using 1.5MB. Depending on how many buffers quake is using (double or triple), assuming it's 16BPP, you're going to have 3-4 buffers of about 600K each. It should be enough though at full texture detail you may get some swapping. If it's just greyscreening maybe there's a different issue. Is this GL Quake WOS under 3.x or is it GLQuake on OS4 ? I think the latter may try to enable multitexture mode by default which definitely doesn't work on Permedia.

[Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Karlos

So, you only have 8MB of video ram. Your WB screen is already using 1.5MB. Depending on how many buffers quake is using (double or triple), assuming it's 16BPP, you're going to have 3-4 buffers of about 600K each. It should be enough though at full texture detail you may get some swapping. If it's just greyscreening maybe there's a different issue. Is this GL Quake WOS under 3.x or is it GLQuake on OS4 ? I think the latter may try to enable multitexture mode by default which definitely doesn't work on Permedia.

Currently I'm on it to understand how OS3.9 and 3d accelerated gfx, so yes, I'm heading to solve this on a 3.x system. The annoying part is, that it worked, but I experienced some strange behaviour of my whole setup and that's why I decided to build from scratch with learning what to do and how to do...

[James]

Originally Posted by Reynolds

Isn't it the same thing what I have already in my OS3.9? Can't recall exactly but I know there is some kind of prefs editor tool there.

No, that is just for WarpOS.

Originally Posted by Reynolds

I presume, if I would like to prepare a system with all possible solutions needed for any programs, I have to install all, obviously the latest / most stable selected...?

If you are interested in running more obscure software you might also be interested in installing these:

Rave3D (CVPPC/BVPPC only) :

https://web.archive.org/web/20030621...v4/rave3d.html

Mesa 3.1 for use with ixemul software:

https://aminet.net/package/util/libs/Mesa-3.1
https://aminet.net/package/util/libs/Mesa-aux
https://aminet.net/package/util/libs/Mesa-glut
https://aminet.net/package/util/libs/Mesa-tk
https://aminet.net/package/util/libs/Mesa-fix

AmigaMesaRTL (sofware 3D only) :

https://aminet.net/search?query=amigamesartl
Works nicely with Framsticks:
https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...68&postcount=2
Might be a bit slow on real hardware though. A Warp3D wrapper for this would be great.

[Reynolds]

Thanks for all, now just can't wait to get things started.

[James]

Originally Posted by Ras Voja

I am interested in Wazp3D on 080 MMX (Vampire V2), how usable miniGL/Warp3D OS3 software is?

Wazp3D is too slow, you will need to use Voodoo on your Vampire to empower it to use real Warp3D.

[Reynolds]

Just a thing came to my mind. During Warp3D installation the installer asks if I want to use Warp3DPPC on my CSPPC-powered Amiga. Haven't tried yet but my memories says it didn't work properly... Anyone using that on Classic PPC Amiga(s) instead of the 68K version?

[thellier]

WARP3D
To be short Warp3D is the hardware 3D driver that truly draw the triangles

OPENGL
OpenGL do many other things as it manage lights, transformations, point of view, etc...
There are various OpenGL implementations: StormMesa,MiniGL, cyberGL, Mesa3D,etc...
But only StormMesa,MiniGL can use Warp3D so hardware rendering

WAZP3D
Wazp3D is a free implementation of Warp3D (ie can replace it) it can do software rendering but also hardware via call to the native 3D library of the OS
on ArosX86 via Mesa3D
on WinUAE/68k via OpenGL32.dll
on Morphos via TinyGL
on OS4 hardware via the Composition (it exist a beta 57 release that can also use Nova3D)

So no hardware rendering on WinUAE/ppc nor Vampire
Note: WinUAE/ppc didnt permit "native calls" to the x86 platform so no Wazp3D with hard x86 rendering

STORMMESA
can render as software or hardware via Warp3D (or Wazp3D or Quarktex)
A debugged update is Aminet/StormMesa2010

QUARKTEX
Like Wazp3D it replace Warp3D.library and have hardware rendering but only via OpenGL32.dll it CANT render as software so it is a WinUAE/68k only product
The package also include an agl.library that do the same for StormMesa: hard rendering but only via OpenGL32.dll so it is a WinUAE/68k only product
Both are less compatible than the Aminet/StormMesa2010 + Wazp3D

Conclusion: In a emulator you need MiniGL,StormMesa2010,Wazp3D

[thellier]

WAZP3D57
is not related to emulation but allow a (sadly not fast) hardware rendering for OS4 ppc real machines with a 3D card that dont have Warp3D driver but have a Warp3DNova driver

See here about this beta that can use Warp3DNova as hardware renderer on OS4 real machines
The beta was never officially released as it is not fast and I wasnt able to find the cause...

https://www.amigans.net/modules/newb...post_id=112600


Note: Wazp3D57 was never compiled for other platforms so there is no binaries for Arosx86, AmigaOS68k, Morphos