02 April 2020, 00:35 | #1081 | |
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EDIT: Should point out that I am not an expert in VLSI, I worked at a VLSI lab (training center attached to a fab that did a lot of second-source runs) but I did systems/network operations and only messed around in Cadence in my off hours. One of the things done was scripted process/die conversion so the fab could produce equivalent ASICs on the process the fab could do. Last edited by AmigaHope; 02 April 2020 at 00:50. |
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02 April 2020, 14:17 | #1082 | |
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OK, that's pretty much what I thought but I would expect that the chipset being bleeding edge technology at the time probably got many hand touches to make it work that would not convert easily. We should also consider some other historical aspects of the chipset and its design process. It was designed between something like 1983 and 1985. I have no idea what chip design was like in those days. We don't know in what form the technology was transferred from Amiga Inc. to Commodore. I would also not be surprised if Commodore already saved the money for converting whatever 1985-technology they got into some more useful format. They were treating the technology business pretty much like a lollipop business. They had a product they could market and thought they were done. If they had used the time well, transferring the design from NMOS to CMOS would probably have been feasible. If they just sat on layouts and schematics from 1985 for some more years, it probably became very difficult and expensive. |
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02 April 2020, 15:08 | #1083 | ||||
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It was drawn for a 7mu NMOS process ... while Inmos produced it's first samples of their transputer CPU in 1.5mu CMOS in the same year. Quote:
In practice: not so much. Most of the know-how apparently never left the "Los Gatos Amiga" ... and when it was closed down by C= (1987) many important things were simply lost. Quote:
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05 April 2020, 16:55 | #1084 | |
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I would love to know how MOS made the masks without having layouts and schematics, especially since Jerri Elsworth has them and has shown them off in public. I have heard this rumour about "missing schematics so they had to do it from scratch" for every commodore product from 80 column pet to GO64 mode in C128 to C65 to AGA and the one thing uniting them is it's a load of shite. |
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05 April 2020, 17:50 | #1085 | ||
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Of course they had them to make the masks, but once done the rest of the materials disappeared Quote:
I think it is quite believable and explains a lot. Commodore never saw their computers as "platforms", that need constant development and refinement ... until the Amiga came along. But even then, they realized it far too late. Just have a look at the PET, CBM-II, VC20, C64, Plus/4, C16 all incompatible to each other ... all just one shot "hit or miss" |
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05 April 2020, 18:18 | #1086 | |
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You think every time from 512k to 1mb to 2mb chipram they were drawing it from scratch again? nooooo. They pulled the schematic out of a drawer or folder and used it. There would have to be dozens and dozens of copies of these documents being referenced, shared, copied and revised constantly, across multiple departments of the company, in different buildings and in different countries. It is not believable because that's not how it works. You find it believable because it is a simple answer that sounds nice, even though it's totally wrong and ignorant. You didn't know enough to recognize it was wrong, and by the time someone is kind enough to explain to you using logic you have transformed it into fact resistant article of faith. Through history we find similar "answers" to complicated questions. Many ancient societies were so ignorant they thought lightning was god's anger and that rain was his blessing. Actually it's static electricity, evaporation and condensation. I have met people who think that sex with virgins cures AIDS and that vaccines made their son autistic. They felt desperate need for an answer and were easily fooled by appealing lies. Last edited by Kyle_Human; 05 April 2020 at 18:26. |
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05 April 2020, 18:41 | #1087 | ||
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I am not claiming to know if the Paula schematics and layout have been lost (I have no idea), but at least I see no contradiction with regard to the publicly known facts. BTW, you may want to think a second if the last part of your post is appropriate. EDIT: Some more theories: First, a timeline of events: 1984: Amiga does the first revisions in silicon, that was before Commodore bought them; the chips were produced by Synertek (see https://retrocomputing.stackexchange...ip-in-ocs-have, hotpaw2 is Ron Nicholson, he should know for sure) 1986: Last revision of Paula (R7) 1986-87: Design of successor to OCS starts ? 1987: Los Gatos facility is closed 1988: First known revisions of the ECS Agnus produced[1], A2024 software released that contains checks for ECS Denise[2] Then there's some story by Dave Haynie that when C= bought Amiga, they had to convert the layouts/schematics to their software - Amiga did them by hand and they existed only on paper - and that this took considerable time. So a theory could go as this: In typical C= fashion, there were resources only to do the absolute minimum, so they converted only Agnus and Denise, as those were modified for ECS (my guess actually is that ECS is Ranger minus the external VRAM logic, see the UHRES thread). Paula was considered good enough, so they didn't update her. When Los Gatos was closed, schematics on paper were lost, only the masks at MOS and only the designs that had been converted remained. Of course this is only speculation, but the fact that Paula was never changed after 1986 and that they even used expensive custom HD floppy drives for the A4000, instead of just modifying Paula, supports the argument that C= in fact lost the schematics. By the way, even if Jeri has the Paula schematics, that doesn't mean C= had them also. E.g. Dale Luck showed a lot of prototype stuff from Amiga lately (even if he was in the software department), that he probably took when Los Gatos was closed. The same might have been the case with the schematics, maybe C= just did not bother/forgot about them. Last edited by chb; 05 April 2020 at 19:54. |
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05 April 2020, 19:35 | #1088 |
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I took part in developing a very sophisticated chip for a major semiconductor company. The chip met very little market demand. This changed a few years later and suddenly customers started asking for the chip. It turned out the company had lost all schenatics, layouts and masks. I guess if this could happen in the age of streamer tapes (in the 21st century, in fact), it certainly could happen in the mid-80s.
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05 April 2020, 19:36 | #1089 | |||||
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05 April 2020, 20:11 | #1090 | |
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Jeri did not say she has "something from an earlier stage of development" or that they are incomplete. She did say that she was given the chipset schematics. Not "partial schematics", not "schematics for angus", just said chipset schematics. Given that in the same video she talks that she replaced paula too surely she would mention any incompleteness in the schematics she was using? First the claim is schematics are lost and then when it turns out they aren't lost, it must be only partial copy and it was conveniently not mentioned? No CBM, MOS or Los Gatos people in 35 years now of interaction with the scene have said "we lost the schematics", but randoms on the internet tell you it must be true, so it's credible? When you have a belief you can't let go of in the face of evidence the result is tying yourself in knots. Even to this day people are hardcore believers in Amiga myths. Amiga ranger is still widely believed to be some supercomputer with amazing graphics despite an actual one turning up and just being an A1000 in a tower. When you have strong emotions on something it makes you irrational and you believe what makes you feel better, so strong that facts must bend to fit you instead of the other way around. This is normal when there is some tragedy, someone comes and gives you something to beleive in to make it all work. Usually this is some really big life changing thing e.g your child is born with brain damage, or planes crash into WTC, or your most loved person dies, or your country loses a world war, which makes you need this. Sometimes the idea you believe for comfort is harmless and sometimes it's a dangerous one like vaccines-autism or stab in back myth. When it's cheap consumer electronics that traps you in these kinds of comforting anti-logic beliefs it means you put too much priority on a trivial thing. Last edited by Kyle_Human; 05 April 2020 at 20:19. |
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05 April 2020, 20:37 | #1091 | |||||
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But there may be a lot of other parts missing as well, considering the rather chaotic state Commodore was in after Tramiel left. Quote:
How could C= people later tell, if what they got was complete? Where are the Ranger schematics? Where are the AAA schematics? Where are the Paula schematics? Even Toni Wilen said this would be the one chip to decap and analyze to finaly understand its inner workings. So Commodore just changed every other chip to CMOS but left out Paula just for fun? Quote:
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You seem not to know, what the ranger-chipset was about. It was Jay Miners approach to use VRAM as Chipram - and he had a (back than) working prototype. Parts of It surfaced a couple of years ago. It had NOTHING to do with a A1000 tower case whatsoever... https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1294091 Quote:
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05 April 2020, 20:53 | #1092 | ||||
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Last edited by chb; 05 April 2020 at 21:01. |
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05 April 2020, 21:15 | #1093 | |
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Ranger was also said to have "7 bitplanes" and I wonder if this was was simply done(planed) by using the the second video out as third playfield ... mixing it back with the traditional output from Denise. All you would need for that is some simplified genlock ... one could probably archive that in a modified "Vidiot". |
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05 April 2020, 21:35 | #1094 | ||
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Now when you want to entertain an idea that wild and improbable, you have to have evidence. If you think it happened you need evidence it happened. If you only think it's possible, you still need evidence that it's possible, and there's not any. Quote:
What debunks this rumour stone dead, other than that actual Los Gatos people couldn't even figure out A500 level improvements, and that actual Commodore engineers have called it a myth, is that the actual Ranger was found. The real deal Amiga Ranger from Los Gatos. It has none of these features, it's just an A1000 with a zorro bus in a tower. That's all Ranger was. An alternative proposal to build an A2000 type big box, nothing more. But people were dissatisfied with slow development of Amigas under Commodore, and they heard Los Gatos wanted to do _something_ they didn't get to do, and so they created this narrative in their heads that the amiga would be so much better if it wasn't for mean old Commodore closing Los Gatos. It's wishful thinking. If you cling to the Betrayed Los Gatos Magic Ranger Chipset story, even after the real ranger was found and proven to be a wet fart, then there is no helping you. Same for this lost schematic rumour that inevitably shows up for every model series commodore ever made. What is so spiritually lacking in your life that you need a DolchstoĆlegende for the loss of something as unimportant as a computer company? You'd replace the history of still living persons with implausible rumours with all the zeal of a religious true believer, but you tell other people they need a break? Experience a tragedy, regain your perspective. If you're going to have delusions have delusions about meaningful things. Last edited by Kyle_Human; 05 April 2020 at 21:41. |
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05 April 2020, 21:44 | #1095 | |
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So you are telling us now, that Jay Miner was right out lying about his work?
And everyone else working with him too? Quote:
what "improvements" would that be? please stop trolling - seriously! |
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05 April 2020, 21:54 | #1096 | |
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Here is Jay Miner's interview, in which he talked about the Ranger Chipset:
https://amigauserinternational.com/2...-of-the-amiga/ Quote:
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05 April 2020, 22:27 | #1097 | |
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BTW, I think it's interesting that while the UHRES/VRAM functionality was clearly there partially - it's mentioned in the ECS & AGA documentation, the AAA docs mention that it got removed from AAA because it was never really used - but I have never seen any details how it was meant to be implemented. Really just 1 bitplane b/w? Or some external color DAC/RAMDAC? Seeing all the fuzz and myths about Ranger, the lone fact that ECS had some VRAM support should trigger some curiosity. But seemingly almost no one talks about that. Anyway, just a footnote in computer history. Last edited by chb; 05 April 2020 at 22:32. |
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05 April 2020, 22:58 | #1098 | ||
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Switching to the background if foreground (Denise) is all black, is a dead simple circuit in TTL... Quote:
So b/w or a fixed color CLUT seems more likely. Well - we probably will never know. |
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05 April 2020, 23:54 | #1099 | |
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05 April 2020, 23:59 | #1100 |
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