IPF image database

alexh · 25 January 2013, 16:33

I was just wondering what was happening in SPS land? It is many months since Kryoflux was released and the IPF libraries for emulators open sourced. But there have been no additions to the database in over two years?

I thought there would have been many more dumps and many more IPF images in many different formats since the release of Kryoflux.

So is it just that the database is not being updated or is IPF generation (and SPS dumping) stalled?

alexh · 06 February 2013, 13:41

No one?

dlfrsilver · 06 February 2013, 16:46

the guys are really busy, and the IPF processing needs a big amount of time..... that's why nothing has been released lately.

What would be an idea for the games that have been already dumped, and for which the format is known, would be to put online an interface, with the able for the originals owner to upload RAW files, and with the server manipulating and proposing back the resulting IPF.

Like a money distributor, you insert your card, you type your personal code, and then it delivers the money.

I'm sure that it's in itself a good idea

Abaddon · 06 February 2013, 18:38

The web idea is a good one. I wouldn't mind the same concept in dtc.

I started using disk-analyser (previously mfmparse) to do some verification and then install using WHDLoad. After that test the home grown IPF in winuae and make sure it get past the protection. This way I can be pretty confident that the raw dump is good.

dlfrsilver · 06 February 2013, 19:05

Let s hope steve or christian will answer to this

BarryB · 06 February 2013, 23:21

The problem, if you can call it a problem, is they have all these IPFs in the name of preservation but who is really benefitting from these preserved images when no really has access to them? Secured in enterprise storage and held there indefinitely without anyone actually being able to access them apart from the people who put them there.

Knowing they are there is like dangling the proverbial carrot in front of you but never letting you get it. Actually, I think that's what CAPS really stood for: Carrot And Proverbial Stick

TCD · 06 February 2013, 23:35

Seems a bit odd that they opened the format to a good number of new systems and right afterwards IPF creation went on halt (at least it seemed like that). Has been paused for 2 years now, hasn't it? Would be nice to hear any kind of roadmap except for 'we're busy making Zeus68k'.

r.cade · 07 February 2013, 05:10

All the recent activity has been on other platforms. Support for 5.25" and 8" disk drives was added and now many different platforms are being imaged and in a more generic way with RAW captures. Also, they have added write support for some formats after it was endlessly requested.

Most recently, the efforts have been concentrated on C64.

I doubt they have stopped doing Amiga, but how many disk are they known to be missing?

As for distribution, that just can't be done legally. The copyrights are owned by someone and you can't just give out copies, no matter if they are already out there on TOSEC. They have received permission for a few (Defender of the Crown/Cinemaware, Bounty Bob Strike Back/Big Five) but that is very rare to get real verified permission.

dlfrsilver · 07 February 2013, 11:48

I was talking about using a machine instead of human work power. i understand the point of what IPF is and is meant, and the other part would be to contact old amiga coders to ask them the permission for releasing the games. We're in 2013 and the amiga is dead commercially speaking, no money can be made out of the games, tools or whatever.
About copyrights and all, the goal is to protect the product during its selling period, and protect the income for the creator. This become useless when the plateform it's running on dies. Dead = no money. Also, it does not mean that if a creator says 'OK' 'i do accept that the game X i made running on amiga plateform can be freely picked, doesn't mean that if the program is recoded on a living commercial plateform this very new version can be also freely picked. But this is a sort of grey area.

TCD · 07 February 2013, 12:43

Maybe we can start something to ask copyright holders to allow free distribution of IPFs for the games they own. We could then host them on the file server for example and the SPS guys could stop to worry.

tomse · 07 February 2013, 13:20

they are a sad bunch.

I told them I have a dump of a game they don't have on their list.
3 weeks later and they still haven't replied.

though in a conversation thread so they have read that I have the game.

and of course they ignored my request to get a copy of the ipf files for the original games that I own.

so I can get behind in "release the ipf/copyrights to the public" for the consoles they no longer support

dlfrsilver · 07 February 2013, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Maybe we can start something to ask copyright holders to allow free distribution of IPFs for the games they own. We could then host them on the file server for example and the SPS guys could stop to worry.

exactly TCD. That's the only point to take care of. It's the only way for us.
We must get agreements with the guys/companies, in order to be clear on the legal side, and with the assurance for them that no one will try to make money from the games. We, amiga gamers are a small communauty (yes we're not that much). As such, we're not a menace. Things just need to be cleared. Only huge companies like activision could say no, just for the principe, the fact is they just don't give a f*ck about the amiga.

MrX_Cuci · 07 February 2013, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomse

they are a sad bunch.

I told them I have a dump of a game they don't have on their list.
3 weeks later and they still haven't replied.

though in a conversation thread so they have read that I have the game.

and of course they ignored my request to get a copy of the ipf files for the original games that I own.

so I can get behind in "releasthe ipf/copyrights to the public" for the consoles they no longer support

Someone else dumped my games and uploaded it. After almost 1.5 years I still haven't gotten an ipf. Anyone else experienced such a thing?

kipper2k · 07 February 2013, 20:47

I still dont understand the logic that ADF's are considered free to distribute while an IPF is not. Both types of images contain the actual coding that is considered to be copyrighted so why would one be different just because the IPF contains the bits that make it a clone of an original. A file is a file?

Would anyone consider hosting an IPF image site to go hand in hand with ADF and DMS images ? where people who create their own images can post them

demoniac · 07 February 2013, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrX_Cuci

Someone else dumped my games and uploaded it. After almost 1.5 years I still haven't gotten an ipf. Anyone else experienced such a thing?

I sent my dumps 4 years ago and no update.

demoniac · 07 February 2013, 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kipper2k

I still dont understand the logic that ADF's are considered free to distribute while an IPF is not. Both types of images contain the actual coding that is considered to be copyrighted so why would one be different just because the IPF contains the bits that make it a clone of an original. A file is a file?

I believe the logic behind that IPF only goes to those who imaged them as they are the ones that bought the disks in the first place. Since only SPS can generate IPF formatting, this distribution policy ensures that they don't step on any legal toes. Whoever releases IPF images to the public are the ones that are breaking the copyright laws, not SPS.

TCD · 07 February 2013, 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

Whoever releases IPF images to the public are the ones that are breaking the copyright laws, not SPS.

Let's try to work on exactly that problem

If the copyright holder allows the distribution of an exact (or at least 'best technically possible') copy of their intellectual property we won't have that problem anymore. It might take a few months until I can spend time on it, but I'd really like to try to get that agreement if only for a few IPFs

kipper2k · 07 February 2013, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

I believe the logic behind that IPF only goes to those who imaged them as they are the ones that bought the disks in the first place. Since only SPS can generate IPF formatting, this distribution policy ensures that they don't step on any legal toes. Whoever releases IPF images to the public are the ones that are breaking the copyright laws, not SPS.

the general public who own the cyclone can now reproduce them, Technically if they did not purchase the actual disks and make a copy they are in violation of the copyright laws and even the reproduction of a disk is against copyright unless specifically stated otherwise by the software house

Steve · 07 February 2013, 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

I sent my dumps 4 years ago and no update.

That's nothing. I dumped a game nearly 10 years ago (Dungeon Master 2.2) and I am still waiting for them to complete the IPF image. Something to do with Atari tracks if I recall. Ok it may be difficult to work out the format but 10 years is bloody ridiculous.

BarryB · 07 February 2013, 23:47

Let's try to keep from criticising SPS too much, they have only maybe 1 guy that has the knowledge to make these IPF's so trawling through all those dumps and deciphering the info is obviously time consuming, they don't work 24/7 and must have other things to concentrate on too.

25 January 2013, 16:33	#1
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,396	IPF image database I was just wondering what was happening in SPS land? It is many months since Kryoflux was released and the IPF libraries for emulators open sourced. But there have been no additions to the database in over two years? I thought there would have been many more dumps and many more IPF images in many different formats since the release of Kryoflux. So is it just that the database is not being updated or is IPF generation (and SPS dumping) stalled?

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06 February 2013, 13:41	#2
alexh Thalion Webshrine Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Oxford Posts: 14,396	No one?

06 February 2013, 16:46	#3
dlfrsilver CaptainM68K-SPS France Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melun nearby Paris/France Age: 46 Posts: 10,473	the guys are really busy, and the IPF processing needs a big amount of time..... that's why nothing has been released lately. What would be an idea for the games that have been already dumped, and for which the format is known, would be to put online an interface, with the able for the originals owner to upload RAW files, and with the server manipulating and proposing back the resulting IPF. Like a money distributor, you insert your card, you type your personal code, and then it delivers the money. I'm sure that it's in itself a good idea

06 February 2013, 18:38	#4
Abaddon Registered User Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Chicago/USA Age: 54 Posts: 655	The web idea is a good one. I wouldn't mind the same concept in dtc. I started using disk-analyser (previously mfmparse) to do some verification and then install using WHDLoad. After that test the home grown IPF in winuae and make sure it get past the protection. This way I can be pretty confident that the raw dump is good.

06 February 2013, 19:05	#5
dlfrsilver CaptainM68K-SPS France Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melun nearby Paris/France Age: 46 Posts: 10,473	Let s hope steve or christian will answer to this

06 February 2013, 23:21	#6
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,725	The problem, if you can call it a problem, is they have all these IPFs in the name of preservation but who is really benefitting from these preserved images when no really has access to them? Secured in enterprise storage and held there indefinitely without anyone actually being able to access them apart from the people who put them there. Knowing they are there is like dangling the proverbial carrot in front of you but never letting you get it. Actually, I think that's what CAPS really stood for: Carrot And Proverbial Stick

06 February 2013, 23:35	#7
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,730	Seems a bit odd that they opened the format to a good number of new systems and right afterwards IPF creation went on halt (at least it seemed like that). Has been paused for 2 years now, hasn't it? Would be nice to hear any kind of roadmap except for 'we're busy making Zeus68k'.

07 February 2013, 05:10	#8
r.cade Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Augusta, Georgia, USA Posts: 550	All the recent activity has been on other platforms. Support for 5.25" and 8" disk drives was added and now many different platforms are being imaged and in a more generic way with RAW captures. Also, they have added write support for some formats after it was endlessly requested. Most recently, the efforts have been concentrated on C64. I doubt they have stopped doing Amiga, but how many disk are they known to be missing? As for distribution, that just can't be done legally. The copyrights are owned by someone and you can't just give out copies, no matter if they are already out there on TOSEC. They have received permission for a few (Defender of the Crown/Cinemaware, Bounty Bob Strike Back/Big Five) but that is very rare to get real verified permission.

07 February 2013, 11:48	#9
dlfrsilver CaptainM68K-SPS France Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melun nearby Paris/France Age: 46 Posts: 10,473	I was talking about using a machine instead of human work power. i understand the point of what IPF is and is meant, and the other part would be to contact old amiga coders to ask them the permission for releasing the games. We're in 2013 and the amiga is dead commercially speaking, no money can be made out of the games, tools or whatever. About copyrights and all, the goal is to protect the product during its selling period, and protect the income for the creator. This become useless when the plateform it's running on dies. Dead = no money. Also, it does not mean that if a creator says 'OK' 'i do accept that the game X i made running on amiga plateform can be freely picked, doesn't mean that if the program is recoded on a living commercial plateform this very new version can be also freely picked. But this is a sort of grey area.

07 February 2013, 12:43	#10
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,730	Maybe we can start something to ask copyright holders to allow free distribution of IPFs for the games they own. We could then host them on the file server for example and the SPS guys could stop to worry.

07 February 2013, 13:20	#11
tomse We need more scans! Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Copenhagen / Denmark Age: 48 Posts: 326	they are a sad bunch. I told them I have a dump of a game they don't have on their list. 3 weeks later and they still haven't replied. though in a conversation thread so they have read that I have the game. and of course they ignored my request to get a copy of the ipf files for the original games that I own. so I can get behind in "release the ipf/copyrights to the public" for the consoles they no longer support

07 February 2013, 20:47	#14
kipper2k Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Thunder Bay, Canada Posts: 4,323	I still dont understand the logic that ADF's are considered free to distribute while an IPF is not. Both types of images contain the actual coding that is considered to be copyrighted so why would one be different just because the IPF contains the bits that make it a clone of an original. A file is a file? Would anyone consider hosting an IPF image site to go hand in hand with ADF and DMS images ? where people who create their own images can post them

07 February 2013, 23:47	#20
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,725	Let's try to keep from criticising SPS too much, they have only maybe 1 guy that has the knowledge to make these IPF's so trawling through all those dumps and deciphering the info is obviously time consuming, they don't work 24/7 and must have other things to concentrate on too.

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