Wiping 1.44MB floppies.

[Eclipse]

Hi,
Anyone know a good way to either un-format or wipe disks? I bought some pre-formatted (as most now are) and they are giving me problems.
And yes, I covered the hole
EDIT: This is not for transferring files, it's for backups and adf's.

[prowler]

I assume they're for use with an 880K Amiga floppy drive. If you're having trouble with them that a straightforward format will not solve, then I doubt that wiping or 'unformatting' them will help.

High density disks have a magnetic layer which is not sufficiently thick to be perfectly compatible with the stronger recording signal produced by double density floppy disk drives.

Those who have no problem using HD floppies in their Amiga's 880K floppy drives are in the minority.

[niobyte]

I have encountered these problems with High Density disks. I found formatting the disks at least 2-3 times seems to resolve issues. I have done this to quite a few High Density disks (over 120+). Even today over 7 years later these disks still have no errors read by an Amiga.

I have tested this on a fair few Chinon FB-354 drives. Also on an Epson DD Amiga drive (cannot recall model number). I also have some HD disks that were formatted and copied to most probably as far back as 1991 and they still work fine.

I mainly used D-COPY for the above formatted disks. Using DOS-2 + Verify. Also Lowest speed and Highest Error Retry Rate. You will find if you reformat each disk at least twice it should then be able to write data back to the disk without any issues.

This has been tested with the following:
3M 3.5" DS-HD 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted
Imation 12881 3.5" DS-HD 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted
Nashuatec 3.5" DS-HD 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted
Sony DS-HD 3.5" Rainbow Coloured 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted
Verbatim DS-HD 3.5" 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted (Grey Coloured)
Verbatim DS-HD 3.5" 1.44MB IBM PC Formatted (Light-Grey Coloured circa 1993-1995)
Verbatim DS-HD 3.5" 1.40MB MAC Formatted (Grey Coloured)
Also many others.

[Hewitson]

Saying that formatting them a number of times makes them more reliable is laughable, every time a magnetic media is written to its reliability is decreased, not increased!

Think of an audio or video tape, every time you record on it the quality is worse.

[TCD]

Can't see that niobyte said that they are more reliable. He just mentioned that formatting them several times allowed him to use 1.44 MB HD disks as 880 KB DD disks.

[AndyLandy]

Originally Posted by TheCyberDruid

Can't see that niobyte said that they are more reliable. He just mentioned that formatting them several times allowed him to use 1.44 MB HD disks as 880 KB DD disks.

I guess in this day and age, it's probably going to be even odds as to which is more reliable to use as DD disks, newer HD disks formatted as DD, or ancient DD disks that have been lying around in boxes for years. :-)

As for me, my OCD monkey doesn't like me using HD disks as DD ones. Fortunately, I have a fair collection of DD ones that I can recycle.

[TCD]

Again, I think the question Eclipse asked is pretty straightforward. If it would be better/more reliable to use new or old DD disks could be discussed in a different thread

[Eclipse]

Ok, I can get them to work by formatting in X-Copy a few times then using erase twice.
They still do not play ball using Cyclone and the dongle.
I'm guessing that as the disks were pre-formatted HD there will still be parts a normal DD format will not erase.
Cyclone will probably try to write to those parts for long tracks etc, or the drives are just too weak.

My asking is I thought you could actually erase them in a PC as well.

[Retro1234]

My dad use to get free HD disks Pre-Formated and no problems with cyclone in fact doesnt the manual recomend HD disks.

Didnt you say you had the PowerComputing Blitz Drive? Have you turned of Blitz before using Cyclone.

[Eclipse]

Yeah the manual says HD.
I've turned off the Blitz copier

EDIT: I read that you can low level format in Linux, anyone have any experience of this? Can Winblows do this too?

[niobyte]

Under Linux use fdformat

MAN Page: http://linux.die.net/man/8/fdformat

Under windows use killdisk Windows version.

You can obtain the Windows Version from the following URL:

http://www.killdisk.com/downloadfree.htm

Then choose Download KillDisk Suite (Free)v.5.2

Once you've downloaded the KillDiskSuiteFree-Setup
When asked to select components choose Active@ KillDisk for Windows

The application will install. Program shortcuts will be in start menu as most windows apps are

Open Active@ KillDisk for Windows then once loaded tick the floppy disk drive (tickbox on left) then click on Kill then choose the One Pass Zeros. You can also increase the retry rate (if disk contains surface errors).

This will completely erase the disk. If you really want you can even high pass erase methods such as DoD 5220.22-M, Gutmann, etc. For your purpose I think One Pass of Zeros should be sufficient. This should work fine

It only does 1-pass. I would go back and erase it twice with zeroes. Hence two passes. Better be safe than sorry You could even customise your own write pattern if you want. Then select the amount of passes you want.

On the Amiga the disk will be completely unformatted and contain no IBM-PC formatted sectors anymore

These disks should now be sufficient for use on the Amiga

Let us know how you go with that. Should be fine

I just decided to try the above method with a generic brand never used 1.44 MB IBM-PC Formatted Floppy disk. It worked without any issues. I just formatted the disk once and it was readable and without any checksum errors. I also performed a full disk copy (at sector level) without verify active and still no errors and on fastest write setting. After that I decided to try copying ordinary AmigaDOS files to this disk and had no issues, also copying an application over and fully testing it. Then final step was copying up to the full capacity of the disk (copied Workbench 3.1 Main disk) then filled up the rest of the disk with text files, no errors writing. Final step was reloaded disk copier verified disk had no read errors after a full sector check. No errors. This was all performed on a Chinon FB-354 880K Amiga Disk Drive Manufacture Date 04/1990 (April 1990).

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by prowler

High density disks have a magnetic layer which is not sufficiently thick to be perfectly compatible with the stronger recording signal produced by double density floppy disk drives.

HD floppies use different magnetic material - to store higher amount of data different magnetic material is used - it must have higher coercivity (coercion) and it have higher remanence - so it is more difficult to change magnetic charge - HD floppies use higher writing and erase currents (hole in floppy and HD sensor in FDD detect such type of material and switching internal FDD electronics to higher currents)

multiple writing with random data in real HD FDD can help with this problem.

Situation is quite similar to cassette tapes used for audio recordings - FeO type used lower current, CrO higher and Me highest but also informational capacity or quality of recording was higher for Me than for CrO than for FeO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercivity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remanence

[kipper2k]

i found using my magnetic cassette eraser give me a good success rate for formatting HD disks, although different brands = different success rates

[Eclipse]

Originally Posted by niobyte

<SNIP>

Thanks, got your PM.
I'll keep you posted on what I find.

[Eclipse]

Ok, err....finished lol
Wiping as 1.44mb on PC then using on the Amiga yealds good results firstly.

HOWEVER.....my problem was in fact a faulty floppy drive, that has now killed my A600's floppy controller

The disks were cheap and nasty WHSmith own brand, and roughly 3 to 4 were no good from the start.
Amiga had Chinon drive internally and Power XL external.

The floppy fault was also messing up the external when added

Re did everything in an A500 and same external and all is good. (Has an A2000 internal drive )
So there you go, only ever trust an Amiga 500 that's been butchered.

[niobyte]

Thanks for clarifying that Eclipse

I was going to ask if you've cleaned or checked your FDD with some ordinary DD Amiga formatted disks.

Also to verify the integrity of your disk drive formatting of DD disks on your current Amiga setup. Trial and error is usually the best way to find out for certain Especially in your case as your internal disk drive ended up frying the floppy disk controller in your A600 (i.e. Paula custom chip - in A500/A2000/A3000/A4000/CDTV it is combination of Gary and Paula used for Floppy Disk Controller. In your A600 I would say more than likely it is one of the CIA chips that has borked - maybe U7->8520A-1|8520PL or U8->8520A-1|8520PL). Do you have issues with any other ports? Do you have any sound?

Making the HD disks completely NULL (writing 0's across all sectors) is the best way to go. To rule out any issues with all of the sectors/tracks on the disk. Also I know where you're coming from with cheap disks. Best to stay away from those as they can end up ruining your drive a lot like the same way disks ridden in mold on the surface can ruin the heads on your FDD e.g. scratching them including the disk surface (hence the screeching sound - think of it like a circular piece of sandpaper running in a clockwise direction across the heads at ~300 RPM).

It usually hits the heads due to the foreign matter being slightly higher than the ordinary disk surface causing it to touch the heads. A lot of variables are involved as disk damage can also be caused by good working disks being read in a drive that has not been calibrated correctly (or has gone out of calibration caused by constant use over a long period of time. If the heads are way off their calibration (way out of alignment) it can cause the heads to touch the disk surface during ordinary operation.

If you find any of the HD disks after formatting them once show signs of wear on the disk surface (such as faint or solid deep cut lines - best not to use them ever again) as it will only get worse the more they're read. Unfortunately I have found a lot of cheap HD disks are a lot more unreliable than cheap old unbranded DD disks. You will clearly see this wear even after a few full disk checks (unreliable disks writing to once then performing a full access/read/transfer 3+ times shows considerable amount of wear on bad disks).

Usually if this does occur though you can easily clean the drive heads with a cotton swap and some cleaning alcohol (Isopropyl alcohol). I've done this in excess of 50+ times on over 6 different Amiga drives.

Although, you will find with some drives that have encountered head damage from either badly manufactured disks or inserting disks with mold or some other harsh foreign matter on them can cause problems reading any disks that can usually be read fine in other drives.

Also be careful if you've inserted such disks. As some of the debris may still be on the disk drive heads causing them to be transferred to a disk that has a clean disk surface also sometimes even scratching the disks surface a lot like it would have already done to the disks that were inserted with the foreign matter on them.

Important Note: If you've inserted a disk that has mold or some other harsh matter on the disk surface do not insert another disk until the drive heads have been cleaned. Other wise you will risk damaging your disks that are in good working order. Also possibly causing further damage to the disk drive heads (depending on how harsh the foreign matter is).

I've encountered this quite a few times. Only solution for that is to either replace the heads on the FDD with some spares laying around (make sure you align/callibrate the heads properly before wide use) or get another drive. Also sometimes the stepping motor causes problems (usually rare - unless the disk drive has been used for more than 20+ years continuously - the heads usually wear out before this happens though).

[Eclipse]

Originally Posted by niobyte

Thanks for clarifying that Eclipse

I was going to ask if you've cleaned or checked your FDD with some ordinary DD Amiga formatted disks.

Also to verify the integrity of your disk drive formatting of DD disks on your current Amiga setup. Trial and error is usually the best way to find out for certain Especially in your case as your internal disk drive ended up frying the floppy disk controller in your A600 (i.e. Paula custom chip - in A500/A2000/A3000/A4000/CDTV it is combination of Gary and Paula used for Floppy Disk Controller. In your A600 I would say more than likely it is one of the CIA chips that has borked - maybe U7->8520A-1|8520PL or U8->8520A-1|8520PL). Do you have issues with any other ports? Do you have any sound?

Making the HD disks completely NULL (writing 0's across all sectors) is the best way to go. To rule out any issues with all of the sectors/tracks on the disk. Also I know where you're coming from with cheap disks. Best to stay away from those as they can end up ruining your drive a lot like the same way disks ridden in mold on the surface can ruin the heads on your FDD e.g. scratching them including the disk surface (hence the screeching sound - think of it like a circular piece of sandpaper running in a clockwise direction across the heads at ~300 RPM).

It usually hits the heads due to the foreign matter being slightly higher than the ordinary disk surface causing it to touch the heads. A lot of variables are involved as disk damage can also be caused by good working disks being read in a drive that has not been calibrated correctly (or has gone out of calibration caused by constant use over a long period of time. If the heads are way off their calibration (way out of alignment) it can cause the heads to touch the disk surface during ordinary operation.

If you find any of the HD disks after formatting them once show signs of wear on the disk surface (such as faint or solid deep cut lines - best not to use them ever again) as it will only get worse the more they're read. Unfortunately I have found a lot of cheap HD disks are a lot more unreliable than cheap old unbranded DD disks. You will clearly see this wear even after a few full disk checks (unreliable disks writing to once then performing a full access/read/transfer 3+ times shows considerable amount of wear on bad disks).

Usually if this does occur though you can easily clean the drive heads with a cotton swap and some cleaning alcohol (Isopropyl alcohol). I've done this in excess of 50+ times on over 6 different Amiga drives.

Although, you will find with some drives that have encountered head damage from either badly manufactured disks or inserting disks with mold or some other harsh foreign matter on them can cause problems reading any disks that can usually be read fine in other drives.

Also be careful if you've inserted such disks. As some of the debris may still be on the disk drive heads causing them to be transferred to a disk that has a clean disk surface also sometimes even scratching the disks surface a lot like it would have already done to the disks that were inserted with the foreign matter on them.

Important Note: If you've inserted a disk that has mold or some other harsh matter on the disk surface do not insert another disk until the drive heads have been cleaned. Other wise you will risk damaging your disks that are in good working order. Also possibly causing further damage to the disk drive heads (depending on how harsh the foreign matter is).

I've encountered this quite a few times. Only solution for that is to either replace the heads on the FDD with some spares laying around (make sure you align/callibrate the heads properly before wide use) or get another drive. Also sometimes the stepping motor causes problems (usually rare - unless the disk drive has been used for more than 20+ years continuously - the heads usually wear out before this happens though).

Thanks for the advice, the forum needs a thumbs up system
I'm going to get a new FDD and the CIA's first and check wether it fixes it.