Do you own a 2 button gamepad or joystick?

[Tigerskunk]

Just the question in the thread title...
Do you own a 2 button gamepad or joystick that can be attached to your Amiga (DB9)?

Would be interesting for me and probably other Amiga game coders to know, since the possibility to design games for two buttons is there, but usually nobody does..

Hopefully many people will answer...

[Retro-Nerd]

Of course i have multi-button pads. There are enough games that supports 2 buttons. And tons of WHDLoad patches for a full CD32 controller mapping.

[honx]

unfortunately only own joysticks with one button mapped like competition pro, multifunction 2002 elite, quickshot...

[meynaf]

You can design your game so that it supports the 2nd button without any other care than supporting the keyboard as well. This way, if the player has 2 buttons he will use them, but if he has not, the 2nd button is on the keyboard. Don't many games already do this ?

[Sinphaltimus]

I've got a CD32 gamepad. No CD32 tho'

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by honx

unfortunately only own joysticks with one button

Sure that's what you own, but what stops you to go out and buy, really cheaply, one that supports two? Honest question, because I don't understand why this doesn't happen.

Originally Posted by meynaf

You can design your game so that it supports the 2nd button without any other care than supporting the keyboard as well. This way, if the player has 2 buttons he will use them, but if he has not, the 2nd button is on the keyboard. Don't many games already do this ?

Mapping a key gameplay action to a keyboard key is cumbersome. It can totally break an action game. This was a HUGE fail of Amiga game design forever, I will never understand the negligence to use widely available two button joysticks on all games from the get go.

How can anyone say that it is the same to execute an action with the same hand and on the same device you are using, than o release that device, reach for a keyboard, press a key and come back to the controller? In the case of a joystick, this means you either stop firing or stop controlling the directions. You only have two hands. Any two button controller will let you use the same hand you use to fire to press something else. You usually can pres both at once, and if not, the time between changing from one button to the other is minimal.

This makes a HUGE difference in games like what Steril is making (a shmup)


You would say that by 2018 we all should have learned a lesson from Amiga's past mistakes and start to make games that, at the base config, need at least a two button controller.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Akira

You only have two hands.

...use your toes to press the key

[honx]

Originally Posted by Akira

Sure that's what you own, but what stops you to go out and buy, really cheaply, one that supports two? Honest question, because I don't understand why this doesn't happen.

i could only buy used hardware here around austria, no "new" hardware available.
on ebay there are inacceptable unrealistically high prices for used retro hardware.
currently ebay is a no go. and is no guarantee for working joysticks when used.
so what stops me to buy? - better question: where should i go to buy?

[LuMan]

I use an aftermarket gamepad designed for the Megadrive. It's got a 'turbo' switch on it that seems to enable Button 2 on the Amiga, but provides no actual 'turbo' functionality - even on a bleedin' Megadrive!!!!

I always thought bog-standard MD controllers would give Button 2 functionality on the Amiga, but I've honestly never tested it.... Maybe I should... Or maybe someone else has..?

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by honx

so what stops me to buy? - better question: where should i go to buy?

Amibay or here.
I tell you what, next time I catch a 2 button joypad, I'll send you one. Deal?

This cannot be an excuse that limits developers in this day and age. We should all have CD32-compatible pads really.

Originally Posted by DamienD

...use your toes to press the key

I swear I have used my foot to slam a spacebar :P So inconvenient

[kgc210]

You might be able to mod your joysticks if they have more than one button, but only function as single button.

http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/DB9-Joystick

I also think you should add CD32 to the option due to Witchmaster making SNES conversions.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=85056

[Tigerskunk]

I use a Sega Master System pad.

Has two buttons and works like a charm on the Amiga.

(plus it looks more sleek and minimal, which I like )

[honx]

Originally Posted by Akira

Amibay or here.

amibay or here is mostly uk i assume. so shipping to austria would quite likely double the costs.

[Jope]

I have a few USB Competition Pros that I modified to three button atari sticks. :-)

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Akira

Mapping a key gameplay action to a keyboard key is cumbersome. It can totally break an action game. This was a HUGE fail of Amiga game design forever, I will never understand the negligence to use widely available two button joysticks on all games from the get go.

How can anyone say that it is the same to execute an action with the same hand and on the same device you are using, than o release that device, reach for a keyboard, press a key and come back to the controller? In the case of a joystick, this means you either stop firing or stop controlling the directions. You only have two hands. Any two button controller will let you use the same hand you use to fire to press something else. You usually can pres both at once, and if not, the time between changing from one button to the other is minimal.

This makes a HUGE difference in games like what Steril is making (a shmup)

You would say that by 2018 we all should have learned a lesson from Amiga's past mistakes and start to make games that, at the base config, need at least a two button controller.

If you *need* a two button controller, then you lose a fraction of players.
It's still better to have that extra button elsewhere, than having it nowhere at all !

I do not suggest replacing the second button by a key, both can work together.

Originally Posted by DamienD

...use your toes to press the key

Or use a friend to push the buttons. I did this once for a shmup : I move the ship, he fires.

Originally Posted by Akira

This cannot be an excuse that limits developers in this day and age. We should all have CD32-compatible pads really.

It does not limit developers. You can just support several buttons/keys for the same action. Even though some oldies can still be found here and there, 9-pin joysticks aren't widely available anymore.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by meynaf

It does not limit developers.

Yes it does, maybe you are thinking with coding in mind, surely you can do whatever with code and it's not a bother to do one or the other.

But I am talking about actual game design. For the reasons I posed before, 1button+keyboard is an absolutely terrible option for any game.
If your lowest common denominator is 1 button joystick + keyboard, you constrain game design to this choice. You need to have the game play well with this option and it will more often than most not play well.

With that said, I always really disliked that most Amiga games didn't let you control them with keyboard as an option. So I would say the absolute minimum config today should be two button controller + full remappable keyboard control.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Akira

Yes it does, maybe you are thinking with coding in mind, surely you can do whatever with code and it's not a bother to do one or the other.

But I am talking about actual game design. For the reasons I posed before, 1button+keyboard is an absolutely terrible option for any game.
If your lowest common denominator is 1 button joystick + keyboard, you constrain game design to this choice. You need to have the game play well with this option and it will more often than most not play well.

Of course it ought not limit game design ! It must only be a fall-back solution for those not equiped.

Originally Posted by Akira

With that said, I always really disliked that most Amiga games didn't let you control them with keyboard as an option. So I would say the absolute minimum config today should be two button controller + full remappable keyboard control.

If you have this, then the second button is also available on the keyboard

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Of course it ought not limit game design ! It must only be a fall-back solution for those not equiped.

But it does. Look at games like Street Fighter.
It's unavoidably damaging in my opinion.

An example: let's say that a certain game requires you to do an action that needs an extra button, and it is your space bar. This action is critical and you have to factor in, when playing, the time it takes you to reach out for that spacebar.

If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option. This might lead to the gameplay being "dumbed down" when you have a two button controller. If you keep it tailored for the 2 button controller player, the 1 button controller player might be at a disadvantage.

So you either let the 1 button controller user get fucked, or you ruin the experience of the 2 button controller user.
In my opinion I rather say "2 button controller minimum" than "one of you is gonna get fucked".

If you have this, then the second button is also available on the keyboard

Exactly! This is why I think full keyboard control is a great option and it should always be available as an alternative to controllers. You can have 2, 3, 4 buttons!

I very happily played Flashback on Amiga exclusively through keyboard controls because I had all these extra buttons. There is no way I would have played it with a 1 button controller.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Akira

But it does. Look at games like Street Fighter.
It's unavoidably damaging in my opinion.

I don't know that game other than the arcade version, but indeed, making it single button isn't exactly a great idea...
The fact most joysticks are single-button shouldn't be an excuse to not use extra buttons when available.

Originally Posted by Akira

An example: let's say that a certain game requires you to do an action that needs an extra button, and it is your space bar. This action is critical and you have to factor in, when playing, the time it takes you to reach out for that spacebar.

If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option. This might lead to the gameplay being "dumbed down" when you have a two button controller. If you keep it tailored for the 2 button controller player, the 1 button controller player might be at a disadvantage.

So you either let the 1 button controller user get fucked, or you ruin the experience of the 2 button controller user.
In my opinion I rather say "2 button controller minimum" than "one of you is gonna get fucked".

One of them IS gonna get fucked regardless of the game design.
If the game is designed for 1 button, the 2 button user gets "dumbed down" game play.
If it's designed for 2 button, the 1 button user gets a disadvantage.
BUT
It it REQUIRES 2 button, the 1 button user is even more fucked and just can't play !

Originally Posted by Akira

Exactly! This is why I think full keyboard control is a great option and it should always be available as an alternative to controllers. You can have 2, 3, 4 buttons!

I very happily played Flashback on Amiga exclusively through keyboard controls because I had all these extra buttons. There is no way I would have played it with a 1 button controller.

I don't see it otherwise.
All my ST game ports using the joystick can use the keyboard too

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Akira

If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option.

In my opinion, there's only one "Street Fighter" type game that does this remarkable well on the Amiga and that's: Fightin' Spirit

...and you can even select to use 1 or 2 buttons