graphics.library 40.25 beta series - Page 2

gulliver · 21 March 2010, 18:36

Nevermind, as he was the actual creator of graphics.library, so probably he has much to share about what has been, needs, remains, or should be done.

dannyp1 · 22 March 2010, 16:19

I'm a little confused (what else is new). Does this library have WarpWCP, Fblit, Ftext, etc. already installed in it? Or is it just compatible with the patches that are mentioned?

Cosmos · 22 March 2010, 16:41

>WarpWCP

What's that ?

>Fblit, Ftext, etc. already installed in it?

Yes, too many patchs on Amiga !

dannyp1 · 22 March 2010, 19:50

Sorry, I meant BlazeWCP

gulliver · 23 March 2010, 00:27

I succesfully tested your graphics.library and it works without issues at the moment. I have an A1200 + 040 + 64MB + Mediator SX + Voodoo 3 3000. I am using AmigaOS 3.9 with all BoingBags. Tested both on AGA and the Voodoo via P96.

Suggestion: It seems there is nothing more to implement on this library as I see it, you have done nearly everything there is. Your Todo list pretty much covers everything. One thing I am worried, is that if you implement CGX please do it in a way it can still be usable on P96 systems.
Could I suggest you to move forward to another library, a related one perhaps, like layers.library and implement your own set of optimizations and enhancements plus the quicklayers tweak? You have shown you are a talented coder, it would be a pitty you only work on one front.

Thanks for your hard work

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 06:21

>It seems there is nothing more to implement on this library as I see it

Beta 5 maybe for today or tomorrow !

>One thing I am worried, is that if you implement CGX please do it in a way it can still be usable on P96 systems

No. Only one RTG system on Amiga.
We must simplify. Simplicity and unity is the key.

>quicklayers tweak

From CGX ? But really faster than the layers.library ?

arnljot · 23 March 2010, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos

No. Only one RTG system on Amiga.
We must simplify. Simplicity and unity is the key.

In theory I'd agree with you.

But the problem is that P96 is on Mediators and WinUAE.

And CGX4 is the only one with CVPCC support and GREX support.

I guess the huge number of users are on WinUAE, while on actual hardware there might be a fair number of Mediator users...

So it's hard to choose which crowd to please.

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 15:20

Picasso96 must die !

So, CyberGraphX must be adapted to WinUAE and Mediator !

The only way...

arnljot · 23 March 2010, 15:31

CGX for Mediator is a completely no go.

If you go to archive.org and look up the old vgr.com site, you'll understand why. VGR and Elbox ended their relationship badly, partly over the Poseidon incident.

I think it's quite possible to have CGX4 in WinUAE, but I think it would be hard to get Toni to devote resources to that since he's a very firm beliver in If-it's-not-broken-don't-fix-it from what I understand, so it would have to be a contribution to UAE by some other code I would think.

I don't know how to get the CGX4 sdk, I asked around once. And didn't get a clear answer. It's obvious that the MorphOS guys have a version, and perhaps even the AROS developers. But I'm not qualified to say if that'll be helpfull to create classic amiga binaries.

Chris Hodges of Poseidon fame do have CGX4 sdk for classic amiga.

From what I can see CGX only miss WinUAE and Mediator support.

I think that Voodoo series support under CGX4 with openpci.library on Mediator should be quite doable.

But Radeon9200 series support on CGX4 on Mediator seems like a crazy dream

Like I said, I completely agree with you that there should only be one RTG system on the Amiga, and it's a shame it's not standardised for classics.

But standardising now, with very limited access to the sources. It seems unlikely that it'll happen.

I understand the choice you make to support only one, I just wish that it would be feasible to bring us all onto one platform or support both...

Here is a link to a previous attempt at opening up these sources

wawa · 23 March 2010, 16:11

being primarly p4, mediator/voodoo3, winuae user myself i second both that p96 should die

, but then first respective open source cgx compatible drivers should be available for these systems. not long ago there was initiative on a1k to update openpci, mostly in respect to gain some system memory from the graphic card, but this seems to be progressing very slowly
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread....257#post331257
generally having openpci as standard with several drivers would be the best way to go i suppose. even radeon drivers could be made even if this will probably be too much work.

cgx isnt open source though. i believe aros graphic system is made to be api compatible, i dont know nothing about it though. could this become the common ground as new standard?

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 16:19

I have begun in this way : the graphics.library in the Kickstart 3.1 WAS in 3 different versions : ECS/OCS, AGA and CD32

Now only ONE with the v40.25... We must TOGETHER follow this way... The ONLY way !

StingRay · 23 March 2010, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmos

Picasso96 must die !
The only way...

Yeah, right...

arnljot · 23 March 2010, 16:21

isn't open pci libraries also closed. You have to prove yourself worthy on a mailing list or something to get them? Or perhaps it's just that the sources are available on request.

Anyway. I'd also like to see that we could do without P96.

But it's perhaps a lot of us to ask from cosmos that he ports P96 drivers to CGX4

Now, what is the consequence of using the new graphics.library on a P96 system?

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 16:39

The magic against Amiga Computers is to divide all the users :

Hyperion / bPlan,
OS4 / MorphOS,
WarpUP / PowerUP,
Picasso96 / CyberGraphX,
Amiga Inc / Hyperion...

The cure is unity !

That's why I put all the patchs in the graphics.library v40.25 : unity again and again...

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 16:41

>Now, what is the consequence of using the new graphics.library on a P96 system?

The graphics.library is the root : P96 (loaded after) patch this lib...

arnljot · 23 March 2010, 16:44

So the system will still benefit from graphics.library? What about the RTG support that it's spoken of here?

Cosmos · 23 March 2010, 17:15

The goal is to put CyberGraphX in the romable v40.25 : unity, again and again !

So, we'll be able to boot directly on RTG (if gfx card detected) without any HD...

wawa · 23 March 2010, 17:28

the unity is most welcome idea, though compatibility between like pup/wos cgx/p96 was mostly maintained by emu to certain extent.

maybe i just should mention that there is another consolidating approach underway. this is the warp3d compatible standard based on wazp3d (mostly in software, but it gains native and probably hw support under winuae). it already is about completely compatible still more advanced to the original w3d. apart of that the storm mesa has been ported to gcc and is being maintained bu the same author. dare i reveal that matthey, who posted above has apparently fixed the little endian hw w3d driver for voodoo series.

except that there is still an approach for common gui solution, so how about to find a common forum to communicate on such projects like utilitybase? not that everybody is heading in his own direction again. better to bundle the effort.

gulliver · 23 March 2010, 20:26

@Cosmos

Your idea of unity regarding RTG is really great, the other idea to make it romable is excellent too.
But here lies the problem, you will be leaving with your modification some users without RTG support on their cards.

The thing is that both CGX and P96 have their good and bad points, the problem is that some graphic cards RTG drivers are only available for one rtg standart, and not for the other. So unless you make CGX drivers for all these P96 only boards, you will still be helping to divide the community, not unifying it.

Picasso96 only boards that do not have CGX support are:

1-Graffity by BCS (do not confuse with the Graffity chunky adaptor. This one is based on the CL-GD5428 graphics chip )
2-Merlin
3-Omnibus
4-Pixel64
5-Domino (only works with CGX2)
6-Radeon thru mediator
7-S3trio64 thru mediator
8-Voodoo thru mediator (I am not so sure if there is a workaround here to make it work with CGX)

And I may add that Mediator gfx boards and the Merlin gfx cards are very common. So not supporting them will kill your unity idea very quickly, as people will start rejecting your graphics.library update for being incompatible with their rtg cards.

arnljot · 23 March 2010, 20:28

PCI Solutions:
Prometheus (Picasso96)
Mediator (Picasso96)
GRex (CGX3, CGX4)

CGX4 exclusive cards:
CyberVisionPPC
BlizzardVisionPPC

P96 exclusive card (on classics)
Radeon92xx

Then there are other problems for Picasso users:
- There is modules, Pablo, Paloma, Concertio - do they work with CGX4

Then there are problems for Mediator users:
- If swapping to OpenPCI library, will they have drivers for their cards?

I think it's cool that a new graphics.library will have rom support for RTG cards, but it will mean that card drivers must be rommable too, and much more.

And as I think graphics.library is part of the hardware abstraction layer, I'd just like to see how you see the full picture in an amiga with "native" gfx card support.

Is the goal to have a RTG capable 512k os3.9 ROM? is there room in the ROM for that? What components have to go into the ROM?

23 March 2010, 06:21	#26
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	>It seems there is nothing more to implement on this library as I see it Beta 5 maybe for today or tomorrow ! >One thing I am worried, is that if you implement CGX please do it in a way it can still be usable on P96 systems No. Only one RTG system on Amiga. We must simplify. Simplicity and unity is the key. >quicklayers tweak From CGX ? But really faster than the layers.library ? Last edited by Cosmos; 23 March 2010 at 08:23.

23 March 2010, 15:31	#29
arnljot Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 76	CGX for Mediator is a completely no go. If you go to archive.org and look up the old vgr.com site, you'll understand why. VGR and Elbox ended their relationship badly, partly over the Poseidon incident. I think it's quite possible to have CGX4 in WinUAE, but I think it would be hard to get Toni to devote resources to that since he's a very firm beliver in If-it's-not-broken-don't-fix-it from what I understand, so it would have to be a contribution to UAE by some other code I would think. I don't know how to get the CGX4 sdk, I asked around once. And didn't get a clear answer. It's obvious that the MorphOS guys have a version, and perhaps even the AROS developers. But I'm not qualified to say if that'll be helpfull to create classic amiga binaries. Chris Hodges of Poseidon fame do have CGX4 sdk for classic amiga. From what I can see CGX only miss WinUAE and Mediator support. I think that Voodoo series support under CGX4 with openpci.library on Mediator should be quite doable. But Radeon9200 series support on CGX4 on Mediator seems like a crazy dream Like I said, I completely agree with you that there should only be one RTG system on the Amiga, and it's a shame it's not standardised for classics. But standardising now, with very limited access to the sources. It seems unlikely that it'll happen. I understand the choice you make to support only one, I just wish that it would be feasible to bring us all onto one platform or support both... Here is a link to a previous attempt at opening up these sources Last edited by arnljot; 23 March 2010 at 15:34. Reason: added url

23 March 2010, 17:15	#37
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	The goal is to put CyberGraphX in the romable v40.25 : unity, again and again ! So, we'll be able to boot directly on RTG (if gfx card detected) without any HD... Last edited by Cosmos; 23 March 2010 at 17:20.

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21 March 2010, 18:36	#21
gulliver BoingBagged Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The South of nowhere Age: 46 Posts: 2,358	Nevermind, as he was the actual creator of graphics.library, so probably he has much to share about what has been, needs, remains, or should be done.

22 March 2010, 16:19	#22
dannyp1 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Michigan USA Posts: 170	I'm a little confused (what else is new). Does this library have WarpWCP, Fblit, Ftext, etc. already installed in it? Or is it just compatible with the patches that are mentioned?

22 March 2010, 16:41	#23
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	>WarpWCP What's that ? >Fblit, Ftext, etc. already installed in it? Yes, too many patchs on Amiga !

22 March 2010, 19:50	#24
dannyp1 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Michigan USA Posts: 170	Sorry, I meant BlazeWCP

23 March 2010, 00:27	#25
gulliver BoingBagged Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The South of nowhere Age: 46 Posts: 2,358	I succesfully tested your graphics.library and it works without issues at the moment. I have an A1200 + 040 + 64MB + Mediator SX + Voodoo 3 3000. I am using AmigaOS 3.9 with all BoingBags. Tested both on AGA and the Voodoo via P96. Suggestion: It seems there is nothing more to implement on this library as I see it, you have done nearly everything there is. Your Todo list pretty much covers everything. One thing I am worried, is that if you implement CGX please do it in a way it can still be usable on P96 systems. Could I suggest you to move forward to another library, a related one perhaps, like layers.library and implement your own set of optimizations and enhancements plus the quicklayers tweak? You have shown you are a talented coder, it would be a pitty you only work on one front. Thanks for your hard work

23 March 2010, 15:20	#28
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	Picasso96 must die ! So, CyberGraphX must be adapted to WinUAE and Mediator ! The only way...

23 March 2010, 16:11	#30
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	being primarly p4, mediator/voodoo3, winuae user myself i second both that p96 should die , but then first respective open source cgx compatible drivers should be available for these systems. not long ago there was initiative on a1k to update openpci, mostly in respect to gain some system memory from the graphic card, but this seems to be progressing very slowly http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread....257#post331257 generally having openpci as standard with several drivers would be the best way to go i suppose. even radeon drivers could be made even if this will probably be too much work. cgx isnt open source though. i believe aros graphic system is made to be api compatible, i dont know nothing about it though. could this become the common ground as new standard?

23 March 2010, 16:19	#31
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	I have begun in this way : the graphics.library in the Kickstart 3.1 WAS in 3 different versions : ECS/OCS, AGA and CD32 Now only ONE with the v40.25... We must TOGETHER follow this way... The ONLY way !

23 March 2010, 16:21	#33
arnljot Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 76	isn't open pci libraries also closed. You have to prove yourself worthy on a mailing list or something to get them? Or perhaps it's just that the sources are available on request. Anyway. I'd also like to see that we could do without P96. But it's perhaps a lot of us to ask from cosmos that he ports P96 drivers to CGX4 Now, what is the consequence of using the new graphics.library on a P96 system?

23 March 2010, 16:39	#34
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	The magic against Amiga Computers is to divide all the users : Hyperion / bPlan, OS4 / MorphOS, WarpUP / PowerUP, Picasso96 / CyberGraphX, Amiga Inc / Hyperion... The cure is unity ! That's why I put all the patchs in the graphics.library v40.25 : unity again and again...

23 March 2010, 16:41	#35
Cosmos Banned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: France Posts: 655	>Now, what is the consequence of using the new graphics.library on a P96 system? The graphics.library is the root : P96 (loaded after) patch this lib...

23 March 2010, 16:44	#36
arnljot Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 76	So the system will still benefit from graphics.library? What about the RTG support that it's spoken of here?

23 March 2010, 17:28	#38
wawa Registered User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: berlin/germany Posts: 1,054	the unity is most welcome idea, though compatibility between like pup/wos cgx/p96 was mostly maintained by emu to certain extent. maybe i just should mention that there is another consolidating approach underway. this is the warp3d compatible standard based on wazp3d (mostly in software, but it gains native and probably hw support under winuae). it already is about completely compatible still more advanced to the original w3d. apart of that the storm mesa has been ported to gcc and is being maintained bu the same author. dare i reveal that matthey, who posted above has apparently fixed the little endian hw w3d driver for voodoo series. except that there is still an approach for common gui solution, so how about to find a common forum to communicate on such projects like utilitybase? not that everybody is heading in his own direction again. better to bundle the effort.

23 March 2010, 20:26	#39
gulliver BoingBagged Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The South of nowhere Age: 46 Posts: 2,358	@Cosmos Your idea of unity regarding RTG is really great, the other idea to make it romable is excellent too. But here lies the problem, you will be leaving with your modification some users without RTG support on their cards. The thing is that both CGX and P96 have their good and bad points, the problem is that some graphic cards RTG drivers are only available for one rtg standart, and not for the other. So unless you make CGX drivers for all these P96 only boards, you will still be helping to divide the community, not unifying it. Picasso96 only boards that do not have CGX support are: 1-Graffity by BCS (do not confuse with the Graffity chunky adaptor. This one is based on the CL-GD5428 graphics chip ) 2-Merlin 3-Omnibus 4-Pixel64 5-Domino (only works with CGX2) 6-Radeon thru mediator 7-S3trio64 thru mediator 8-Voodoo thru mediator (I am not so sure if there is a workaround here to make it work with CGX) And I may add that Mediator gfx boards and the Merlin gfx cards are very common. So not supporting them will kill your unity idea very quickly, as people will start rejecting your graphics.library update for being incompatible with their rtg cards.

23 March 2010, 20:28	#40
arnljot Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Oslo Posts: 76	PCI Solutions: Prometheus (Picasso96) Mediator (Picasso96) GRex (CGX3, CGX4) CGX4 exclusive cards: CyberVisionPPC BlizzardVisionPPC P96 exclusive card (on classics) Radeon92xx Then there are other problems for Picasso users: - There is modules, Pablo, Paloma, Concertio - do they work with CGX4 Then there are problems for Mediator users: - If swapping to OpenPCI library, will they have drivers for their cards? I think it's cool that a new graphics.library will have rom support for RTG cards, but it will mean that card drivers must be rommable too, and much more. And as I think graphics.library is part of the hardware abstraction layer, I'd just like to see how you see the full picture in an amiga with "native" gfx card support. Is the goal to have a RTG capable 512k os3.9 ROM? is there room in the ROM for that? What components have to go into the ROM?

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