SCSI - IDE CF Solution

fitzsteve · 17 April 2010, 19:37

I'm looking at one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-IDE-40pin-...item35a7eb093e

I've got an IDE-CF Backplane that I'd like to use on my Tower (see pic)

This seems expensive to me but I can't see any cheaper, does anyone know if/where I can get at a better price?

Also before shelling out my hard earned cash I wanted to make sure this was the right thing for the job. I'll be setting it up off the SCSI controller on the Micronik Z3i Busboard.

Thanks guys

Steve.

rkauer · 17 April 2010, 22:25

At 37USD sounds like a bargain to me.

prowler · 17 April 2010, 22:26

Hi Steve,

It certainly seems like that IDE to SCSI converter will do the job.

The screenshots show a 40-pin IDE hard drive connected to the 50-pin SCSI bus in a Power Macintosh 6100 and working satisfactorily, so it should work with your CF-IDE adapter to connect it to the SCSI controller in your Amiga 1200 Tower.

Unfortunately, as you have seen, these adapters are fairly expensive, but they are generally worth it because they are such useful devices.

You might also consider an Acard SCSIDE adapter, which is very similar. FYI, here is a related thread with some links to other threads which should give you all the information you need to make up your mind:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=44143

fitzsteve · 17 April 2010, 23:48

Thanks for the info prowler

The Acard looks great but much too expensive. So as the item I linked seems to be a good price I might well invest.

A nice fast CF card running via the SCSI should be pretty quick and having the access at the rear of the tower will be ideal.

Steve.

prowler · 17 April 2010, 23:59

Good call, Steve!

I doubt that you'll have any trouble with that eBay adapter, and the price is not bad at all, really.

This is where I would normally say: "Let us know how you get on when it arrives.", but I know you will anyway.

fitzsteve · 18 April 2010, 00:05

lol it wont be right away anyway will have to wait for the next pay packet... Thanks again

Zetr0 · 18 April 2010, 00:53

I have one of these SCSI-IDE bridges

AMAZING bits of kit!

although I got mine about a month ago, a fair bit cheaper too!! (I knew I should of got more than one!!!)

anyway... it works lovely with IDE->CF card adapters and a whole host of IDE drives.

On my A500+ (HD8+) I get some serious speeds too

(remember we are on a stock 68k chip with 8MB Fast 0.8 Mips)

Read Times
1.5MB per second - 93% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> CF Card )
1.6MB per second - 91% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> 20GB ATA 133 UDMA Maxtor HDD)
1.2MB per second - 91% CPU idle - (2GB HP SureStore SCSI drive)
1.2MB per second - 87% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> Samsung DVDROM drive)
0.8MB per second - 86% CPU idle - (Pionoeer X6 SCSI CDRW)

now there are somthings to consider here...

1. The UDMA IDE drive has a large 8MB cache this will confuse most bench marking proggies on the miggy - the 2GB SCSI HDD doesn't have cache.

2. the DVDROM has cache / buffer, the SCSI CDRW has little if any.

3. the IDE->CF card doens't have any cache and exploites its virtually insignificant seek time to compensate.

hope that lot helps, had I of had a spare one steve I would of sent it to you for a play =)

alas its hooked up to my A500HD+8

fitzsteve · 18 April 2010, 01:15

Thank mate!

Sounds like this will be the way forward then

Where did you get your adapter?

Steve.

asm1 · 19 April 2010, 17:02

Steve

Where did you get the CF Backplane thingy... it looks handy as....

I think I want one

Andrew

coze · 19 April 2010, 17:40

I got ten of these from this guy for 100$ some while ago ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=330402391621

unfortunately the seller you referred seems to have bought all his stock and now gorging over 200% profit from people

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230450465086

what a wanker ...

it's these kind of people that make me wanna grab my club split some squash

fitzsteve · 19 April 2010, 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by coze

I got ten of these from this guy for 100$ some while ago ...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=330402391621

unfortunately the seller you referred seems to have bought all his stock and now gorging over 200% profit from people

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230450465086

what a wanker ...

it's these kind of people that make me wanna grab my club split some squash

You got any spare? I only want one

Promise I wont sell it for a big profit

Cheers for he info though, I hate it when that happens, also to Amiga gear, you know the 'Collection only' mass auctions that get split and sold for 400% profit

coze · 19 April 2010, 18:32

would like to help fitz, but I have plans to use 8 of them already and would like keep the other two as spares ... besides I am in japan, and with the shipping would be killer ... (and I really don't want to be looking more of this stuff in the future ...)

cosmicfrog · 19 April 2010, 18:46

fitzsteve wonder if we can get a bulk buy together as I might be up for an scsi-ide card
be good if we could at least bring the postage down

while I agree with your feelings coze I can appreciate a good buissness sense when I see it, glad you got them before though. Humm plan to use 8 of em, is that all in 1 machine heheheh

coze · 19 April 2010, 18:56

well, I got two already in my A3000 and A530.

A couple will go in my ICD SCSI link adapter for Atari STe and TT030. (presuming if they work)

And I got A590, SupraSCSI, GVP A500HD8+ waiting ... (I have a A500 side car fetish, lol)

Lastly the CyberStormPPC in my A4000 could use one.

oops I forgot the broken A530 I have waiting for repairs

If I can fix the SCSI in it I'm gonna sell it assembled as a full unit with CF HDD.

fitzsteve · 19 April 2010, 20:20

No worries Coze, thought I'd ask just in case

@Cosmicfrog

That might be a good idea I'll keep my eyes open for a better deal and give you the heads up.

Steve.

cosmicfrog · 19 April 2010, 21:39

cheers Fsteve

thats 9 coze + 1 spare hehehehehhehe nice !!

might be intrested in A530 but bet postage would be a killer

whiteb · 23 April 2010, 02:27

I was about to start a new thread, and thought.... hmmmm, lets do a search before I get flamed for not searching.

Found this... RECENT thread. Top marks because this was EXACTLY what i was looking to do.

I thought about putting in CF card in my A4000. Then it dawned on me, that.. Holy shit, the PIO mode on the IDE channel on the 4000 motherboard is going to be SLOW !

But wait, There is more, My A4000 has a Cyberstorm MK II, *WITH* its CyberSCSI. Hmmmm I thought, How can I put a CF card on to the CyberSCSI for FULL DMA to the 060. Then I found this thread

Now, from what I understand, the CyberSCSI (MK-II) is standard SCSI-1, where as the MK-III us ULTRA. Would these devices you are talking about here, be SCSI-1 Compatible ?

Something else which would be cool, to save ONE adapter at least, is a SCSI-CF adapter, instead of going SCSI > IDE > CF, you could just go SCSI > CF with a minimal circuit like the IDE > CF adapters.., unless, with SCSI, you *NEED* more logic to control it.

Zetr0 · 23 April 2010, 03:22

@whiteb

both Cyberstorm Mk1 and Mk2 are FastSCSI2 Hosts.

they have an Async transfer of 7MB a sec and Sync transfer of 10MB.

SCSI and SCSI II are relatively interchangeable with various connections offering subtle improvements.

we have Narrow(8 bit) and Wide (16bit) with this SCSI III devices are compatible with the SCSI II. but this does also come down to the controller.

with SCSI we have two types Narrow and Wide - these are in 3 flavours, the most common is LVD (low voltage differential) and SE (single ended), lest common is HVD (High Voltage Differential)

I doubt you will come accross much HVD SCSI stuff its usually for large complex RAID chains and its pretty much being phased out for Serial SCSI standard, but its worth knowing that HVD devices are NOT compatible with LVD devices.

SE (Single Ended) devices can terminate themselfs

The adapter discussed here can be put into UDMA mode for IDE devices that support it of the 6 CF cards I have tried none of them supported the UDMA mode, neither did one 4GB IDE drive (not surprised to be honest) but when the SCSI bridge was put into PIO mode all the CF cards ran .... and ran VERY WELL!!

It was true joy to see a 20GB UDMA hard disk in UDMA mode running on my A500HD+8 which was using 24bit DMA...

okay, the drive only has a single 4GB partition and only being teased with a stock 68k moto... but even then it was able to thump out 1.6mb per sec!!!

The adapter thats mentioned here has two "specific" settings for LS120 drives and another for Optical ROM/RW drives.

whiteb · 23 April 2010, 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@whiteb

both Cyberstorm Mk1 and Mk2 are FastSCSI2 Hosts.

they have an Async transfer of 7MB a sec and Sync transfer of 10MB.

SCSI and SCSI II are relatively interchangeable with various connections offering subtle improvements.

Okay, so SCSI-II then.

So if I go SCSI > IDE > CF, will it be FASTER (in ANY MODE) than the onboard 4000 IDE ? I am thinking it WILL be, as the IDE (or SCSI) is on the Processor and Ram, and does not Halt the 4000 bus when IDE is transferring, yes ?

I was thinking going from Cyberscsi to IDE

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-IDE-40pin-...item35a7eb093e

Then IDE to CF.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Compact-Flash...item414eaa6db5

Zetr0 · 23 April 2010, 12:53

@whitb

Thats the same setup I have running on my A500HD8+ and it works wonders

*remember that the CF card DONT have cache, this will reduce performance when pulling data of the device. CF cards trade this off with very VERY low seek times.

With small file sizes this is possible fasther throughput than a Wide SCSI too, but compating this with sustained through put the SCSI disk will win every time.

A500HD+8 tests (2MB Chip / 8MB Fast / 68000 CPU / OS3.1 / Format FFS)

SANDISK 512MB Compact Flash

SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.57MB READ
RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.55MB READ / 92% CPU Idle

Maxtor 20GB UDMA IDE HDD

SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.68MB READ *
RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.65MB READ / 93% CPU Idle

HP Surestore 2.1GB SCSI HDD

SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.24MB READ
RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.2MB READ / 90% CPU Idle

In the case of the UDMA IDE HDD the READ test had to be done twice per test as the CACHE on the drive contributes to a false result of 2.3MB

so thatthe above with just a stock 68k moto, with an 060 fetching and a twice as fast scsi bandwidth, this set up should fly like turd off the proverbial stick

hope that helps

17 April 2010, 19:37	#1
fitzsteve Professional slacker! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kent, UK Age: 44 Posts: 6,685	SCSI - IDE CF Solution I'm looking at one of these: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-IDE-40pin-...item35a7eb093e I've got an IDE-CF Backplane that I'd like to use on my Tower (see pic) This seems expensive to me but I can't see any cheaper, does anyone know if/where I can get at a better price? Also before shelling out my hard earned cash I wanted to make sure this was the right thing for the job. I'll be setting it up off the SCSI controller on the Micronik Z3i Busboard. Thanks guys Steve. Last edited by fitzsteve; 29 May 2024 at 14:57.

23 April 2010, 12:53	#20
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@whitb Thats the same setup I have running on my A500HD8+ and it works wonders remember that the CF card DONT have cache, this will reduce performance when pulling data of the device. CF cards trade this off with very VERY low seek times. With small file sizes this is possible fasther throughput than a Wide SCSI too, but compating this with sustained through put the SCSI disk will win every time. A500HD+8 tests (2MB Chip / 8MB Fast / 68000 CPU / OS3.1 / Format FFS) SANDISK 512MB Compact Flash SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.57MB READ RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.55MB READ / 92% CPU Idle Maxtor 20GB UDMA IDE HDD SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.68MB READ RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.65MB READ / 93% CPU Idle HP Surestore 2.1GB SCSI HDD SYSINFO Drive Speed: 1.24MB READ RSCP (raw speed/ CPU Load): 1.2MB READ / 90% CPU Idle In the case of the UDMA IDE HDD the READ test had to be done twice per test as the CACHE on the drive contributes to a false result of 2.3MB so thatthe above with just a stock 68k moto, with an 060 fetching and a twice as fast scsi bandwidth, this set up should fly like turd off the proverbial stick hope that helps Last edited by Zetr0; 23 April 2010 at 13:14.

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17 April 2010, 22:25	#2
rkauer I hate potatos and shirts Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Sao Leopoldo / Brazil Age: 58 Posts: 3,482	At 37USD sounds like a bargain to me.

17 April 2010, 22:26	#3
prowler Global Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sidcup, England Posts: 10,300	Hi Steve, It certainly seems like that IDE to SCSI converter will do the job. The screenshots show a 40-pin IDE hard drive connected to the 50-pin SCSI bus in a Power Macintosh 6100 and working satisfactorily, so it should work with your CF-IDE adapter to connect it to the SCSI controller in your Amiga 1200 Tower. Unfortunately, as you have seen, these adapters are fairly expensive, but they are generally worth it because they are such useful devices. You might also consider an Acard SCSIDE adapter, which is very similar. FYI, here is a related thread with some links to other threads which should give you all the information you need to make up your mind: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=44143

17 April 2010, 23:48	#4
fitzsteve Professional slacker! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kent, UK Age: 44 Posts: 6,685	Thanks for the info prowler The Acard looks great but much too expensive. So as the item I linked seems to be a good price I might well invest. A nice fast CF card running via the SCSI should be pretty quick and having the access at the rear of the tower will be ideal. Steve.

17 April 2010, 23:59	#5
prowler Global Moderator Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sidcup, England Posts: 10,300	Good call, Steve! I doubt that you'll have any trouble with that eBay adapter, and the price is not bad at all, really. This is where I would normally say: "Let us know how you get on when it arrives.", but I know you will anyway.

18 April 2010, 00:05	#6
fitzsteve Professional slacker! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kent, UK Age: 44 Posts: 6,685	lol it wont be right away anyway will have to wait for the next pay packet... Thanks again

18 April 2010, 00:53	#7
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	I have one of these SCSI-IDE bridges AMAZING bits of kit! although I got mine about a month ago, a fair bit cheaper too!! (I knew I should of got more than one!!!) anyway... it works lovely with IDE->CF card adapters and a whole host of IDE drives. On my A500+ (HD8+) I get some serious speeds too (remember we are on a stock 68k chip with 8MB Fast 0.8 Mips) Read Times 1.5MB per second - 93% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> CF Card ) 1.6MB per second - 91% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> 20GB ATA 133 UDMA Maxtor HDD) 1.2MB per second - 91% CPU idle - (2GB HP SureStore SCSI drive) 1.2MB per second - 87% CPU idle - (SCSI -> IDE -> Samsung DVDROM drive) 0.8MB per second - 86% CPU idle - (Pionoeer X6 SCSI CDRW) now there are somthings to consider here... 1. The UDMA IDE drive has a large 8MB cache this will confuse most bench marking proggies on the miggy - the 2GB SCSI HDD doesn't have cache. 2. the DVDROM has cache / buffer, the SCSI CDRW has little if any. 3. the IDE->CF card doens't have any cache and exploites its virtually insignificant seek time to compensate. hope that lot helps, had I of had a spare one steve I would of sent it to you for a play =) alas its hooked up to my A500HD+8

18 April 2010, 01:15	#8
fitzsteve Professional slacker! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kent, UK Age: 44 Posts: 6,685	Thank mate! Sounds like this will be the way forward then Where did you get your adapter? Steve.

19 April 2010, 17:02	#9
asm1 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Age: 44 Posts: 637	Steve Where did you get the CF Backplane thingy... it looks handy as.... I think I want one Andrew

19 April 2010, 17:40	#10
coze hastala vista winny vista Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mt fuji Age: 46 Posts: 1,335	I got ten of these from this guy for 100$ some while ago ... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=330402391621 unfortunately the seller you referred seems to have bought all his stock and now gorging over 200% profit from people http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=230450465086 what a wanker ... it's these kind of people that make me wanna grab my club split some squash

19 April 2010, 18:32	#12
coze hastala vista winny vista Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mt fuji Age: 46 Posts: 1,335	would like to help fitz, but I have plans to use 8 of them already and would like keep the other two as spares ... besides I am in japan, and with the shipping would be killer ... (and I really don't want to be looking more of this stuff in the future ...)

19 April 2010, 18:46	#13
cosmicfrog The 1 who ribbits Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: leek, Staffs, UK Age: 56 Posts: 3,557	fitzsteve wonder if we can get a bulk buy together as I might be up for an scsi-ide card be good if we could at least bring the postage down while I agree with your feelings coze I can appreciate a good buissness sense when I see it, glad you got them before though. Humm plan to use 8 of em, is that all in 1 machine heheheh

19 April 2010, 18:56	#14
coze hastala vista winny vista Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mt fuji Age: 46 Posts: 1,335	well, I got two already in my A3000 and A530. A couple will go in my ICD SCSI link adapter for Atari STe and TT030. (presuming if they work) And I got A590, SupraSCSI, GVP A500HD8+ waiting ... (I have a A500 side car fetish, lol) Lastly the CyberStormPPC in my A4000 could use one. oops I forgot the broken A530 I have waiting for repairs If I can fix the SCSI in it I'm gonna sell it assembled as a full unit with CF HDD.

19 April 2010, 20:20	#15
fitzsteve Professional slacker! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Kent, UK Age: 44 Posts: 6,685	No worries Coze, thought I'd ask just in case @Cosmicfrog That might be a good idea I'll keep my eyes open for a better deal and give you the heads up. Steve.

19 April 2010, 21:39	#16
cosmicfrog The 1 who ribbits Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: leek, Staffs, UK Age: 56 Posts: 3,557	cheers Fsteve thats 9 coze + 1 spare hehehehehhehe nice !! might be intrested in A530 but bet postage would be a killer

23 April 2010, 02:27	#17
whiteb Fanatically Amiga. Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Age: 54 Posts: 1,557	I was about to start a new thread, and thought.... hmmmm, lets do a search before I get flamed for not searching. Found this... RECENT thread. Top marks because this was EXACTLY what i was looking to do. I thought about putting in CF card in my A4000. Then it dawned on me, that.. Holy shit, the PIO mode on the IDE channel on the 4000 motherboard is going to be SLOW ! But wait, There is more, My A4000 has a Cyberstorm MK II, WITH its CyberSCSI. Hmmmm I thought, How can I put a CF card on to the CyberSCSI for FULL DMA to the 060. Then I found this thread Now, from what I understand, the CyberSCSI (MK-II) is standard SCSI-1, where as the MK-III us ULTRA. Would these devices you are talking about here, be SCSI-1 Compatible ? Something else which would be cool, to save ONE adapter at least, is a SCSI-CF adapter, instead of going SCSI > IDE > CF, you could just go SCSI > CF with a minimal circuit like the IDE > CF adapters.., unless, with SCSI, you NEED more logic to control it.

23 April 2010, 03:22	#18
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	@whiteb both Cyberstorm Mk1 and Mk2 are FastSCSI2 Hosts. they have an Async transfer of 7MB a sec and Sync transfer of 10MB. SCSI and SCSI II are relatively interchangeable with various connections offering subtle improvements. we have Narrow(8 bit) and Wide (16bit) with this SCSI III devices are compatible with the SCSI II. but this does also come down to the controller. with SCSI we have two types Narrow and Wide - these are in 3 flavours, the most common is LVD (low voltage differential) and SE (single ended), lest common is HVD (High Voltage Differential) I doubt you will come accross much HVD SCSI stuff its usually for large complex RAID chains and its pretty much being phased out for Serial SCSI standard, but its worth knowing that HVD devices are NOT compatible with LVD devices. SE (Single Ended) devices can terminate themselfs The adapter discussed here can be put into UDMA mode for IDE devices that support it of the 6 CF cards I have tried none of them supported the UDMA mode, neither did one 4GB IDE drive (not surprised to be honest) but when the SCSI bridge was put into PIO mode all the CF cards ran .... and ran VERY WELL!! It was true joy to see a 20GB UDMA hard disk in UDMA mode running on my A500HD+8 which was using 24bit DMA... okay, the drive only has a single 4GB partition and only being teased with a stock 68k moto... but even then it was able to thump out 1.6mb per sec!!! The adapter thats mentioned here has two "specific" settings for LS120 drives and another for Optical ROM/RW drives.

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