Simple Workbench Features Missing In Modern Distros?

[DisasterIncarna]

So i have been without any windows systems at all for about 2+ years now, typically had at least 1 device handy with it but have let go due to the "extra" features windows has these days nobody should be happy about.


So linux is the obvious go-to OS, and I have tried many different distros, and while using those I have noticed a couple of annoying quirks on several distros and esp on the one i prefer using (Kubuntu). My main annoyance being Window Positions, this as any Amiga user should know is no big deal, we can Snapshot OS Windows, various programs allow you to enter startup window positions in their tooltypes or just save the position in their own prefs, we also have MUI programs which again can be snapshotted.


Quite a few linux distros however dont seem to do what seems like such an old and seemingly easy feature we take for granted over on Workbench, "sometimes" my Linux/KDE apps remember their locations, but mostly they never remember, esp when multi monitors are in use (the same applies to audio on multiple monitors).


Another thing is the old faithful RAMDISK, Linux does have it and can/does use it or something like it but unless you know its there (/dev/shm/ tmpfs), then users dont really use it and instead clutter their storage media, perhaps needlessly. I dump a lot of temporary junk files i dont want to keep in there and have the location pinned in Dolphin file manager, im just amazed its not shown as a location to dump temp files.


You have to think, why dont all modern OS have QOL features that we take for granted, esp something simple like "window X, you stay here when i open you".


Anyone else wish for their day to day PC OS of choice to have AmigaOS functions which should be a piece of cake?


I do recall someone was trying to make an Amiga style Window Manager for Linux, not sure what happened to that but damn would i like some simple Workbench/OS/MUI features on KDE.

[derSammler]

I see the removal of useful features in modern operating systems since Windows 8. I switched from 7 to 10 two years ago and can still hardly work with it as so many features from 7 were simply cut. It seems modern operating systems are tailored to stupid people...

I also wish we had a simply GUI with powerful features instead of a fancy GUI that can hardly do anything useful.

[fxgogo]

It is more than a Workbench feature as it required application developers to include the feature, but AREXX. AppleScript came close to replicating it, but being able to control your application from a scripting language is insanely awesome.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by derSammler

It seems modern operating systems are tailored to stupid people...

No, they are (in theory) aimed at normal people, following the massive success of smartphone UIs.

That said, it is also true that there's a lot of typical middle-manager meddling and adding/removing stuff at whim causes mass confusion amongst users. Tbh it doesn't really bother me because I've always treated Windows as a shell only and only used maybe Calculator & Paint from its native apps, everything else being handled by a handful of 3rd party ones (Total Commander & simplewall being generally in charge). I must say it's been pretty good re stability, speed and ease of use doing it this way. The only problem is telemetry, which is why I block everything going out.

With Win 11 requiring a MS account we might be entering a new obnoxious and unacceptable phase though.

[roondar]

Honestly, what I miss most in modern UI's is the feedback when things are 'done' or 'set'. I still don't trust the whole "just close the window after changing the setting, we'll save it, honest" approach of modern configuration screens. I also really don't like the "nah, you can't manually save your work any more, it's done automatically" stuff, as that to usually does not confirm in any way that the file you have at the point of quitting the program is actually saved.

In other words, I'm a control freak and want to press the button so that I know it actually happened

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by roondar

Honestly, what I miss most in modern UI's is the feedback when things are 'done' or 'set'. I still don't trust the whole "just close the window after changing the setting, we'll save it, honest" approach of modern configuration screens. I also really don't like the "nah, you can't manually save your work any more, it's done automatically" stuff, as that to usually does not confirm in any way that the file you have at the point of quitting the program is actually saved.

In other words, I'm a control freak and want to press the button so that I know it actually happened

yeah ive had that, tho thankfully not often enough for me to tear my hair out, various games also do the "trust me bro ill save for you at the proper moment" and like you i would prefer the "nope, ill do it myself thanks" option.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by roondar

I also really don't like the "nah, you can't manually save your work any more, it's done automatically" stuff, as that to usually does not confirm in any way that the file you have at the point of quitting the program is actually saved.

But does any serious software actually do that?

As for games, vast majority will still let you save manually, in addition to whatever autosave system they might have.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by roondar

In other words, I'm a control freak and want to press the button so that I know it actually happened

The problem with that is that you don't really know it did anything when you did push the button...

But it's very much a generational thing, I suspect. When saving had to be manual, we expected it and can't get used to the idea it could be entirely automatic. But for those who grew up in an era where storage was fast and cheap, the idea something doesn't just persist is entirely alien.

[Phantasm]

Standardised system of command line parsing. Eg readargs never seen this anywhere else and it's great that every command that uses it you can just pass a ? to get the template.

Genius

[Daedalus]

Yes, daily. Things like:

- Not having windows snap do the front as soon as they're clicked on;
- Not locking a window in place when it has a dialog box (requester in Amiga terms) open;
- Sensible keyboard shortcuts with a dedicated keyboard shortcut key (e.g. RAmiga+Q to quit, RAmiga+S to save... macOS does have this to be fair);
- Being able to set a file requester to a location by dragging a file into it (Haiku has a vague relative of this);
- Consistent keyboard shortcuts for editing text (e.g. Shift+right arrow to move to the end of the line, Shift+Delete to delete to the end of the line, Shift+left arrow to move to the start of the line, Shift+backspace to delete to the start of the line...);
- Assigns (most OSes have a vague approximation but nothing quite the same);
- Save/Use/Cancel actions on preferences;
- True spatial layout of icons in directories;
- UI elements that react when they're clicked, regardless of whether the application is ready to accept the input or not (separate, high priority task for GadTools etc.);
- Being able to scroll beyond the current list of file icons in a directory.
- Being able to tailor specific files to be opened by certain applications (Windows finally has something like this in recent versions).

And, as already mentioned above:
- ARexx;
- ReadArgs-style parameter passing.

[Geordie-Jedi]

@DisasterIncarna

Agreed, there is a LOT of simple, almost obvious that are missing from "modern" OS's and DE's

Like yourself, I use Linux (Kubuntu) too.

1. I loved Workbench's ability for multiple different screens (even with differing resolutions).
Such a brilliant concept.

Although we can get something similar with additional workspaces (multiple desktops).
I'm a sucker for a bit of bling, and I LOVE the Compiz desktop cube and wobbly windows.

2. Yes the snapshot drawers and icon position in Workbench was brilliant.
TBF - KDE does seem to remember most of my selections and positioning.
With the exception of the Steam app/window, that just pleases itself.

3. RAM disk was a fantastic idea, and missed in most modern desktops.

4. Using MUI / Scalos / New Icons to enhance your Workbench environment was amazing BITD.

Whenever I do a new install on Linux, I spend a bit of time setting up KDE and the DE
exactly how I like it, then I leave it alone.

I like to tinker, but I don't want to spend most days messing about.
All about creating a workflow that I'm happy with.

Again, something that seems lacking in modern OS's and environments.
(Yes I'm aware that you can do a lot of skinning / tweaking on Windows with the correct apps).

5. The Amiga shell / CLI was/is powerful and very useful (Esp if you include Arexx).

In all honesty, I think that Linux is the closest thing to running an Amiga.
With the ability to change almost anything about the OS / DE.
The software (both FOSS and OSS) and paid for software.
The community as a whole, most people are really helpful and welcoming.

I just get a real Amiga vibe from the Linux scene.

[AestheticDebris]

Originally Posted by Geordie-Jedi

3. RAM disk was a fantastic idea, and missed in most modern desktops.

The problem with a RAM disk is that it is inherently less efficient than a RAM backed page file. And all the good use cases for it can be better handled in that way too, for example Windows won't necessarily actually persist a temporary file to disk, so it'll behave like it's in a RAM disk without having to reserve RAM space for it.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

But does any serious software actually do that?

As for games, vast majority will still let you save manually, in addition to whatever autosave system they might have.

Oh yes, various serious pieces of software do this. PyCharm instantly springs to mind. Word also does this in it's newest version after you've saved once. At work I use PowerBI, which does require you to save in it's development environment, but does not need you to OK changes in settings or configurations. Which has already led to all sorts of problems when it decides not to save a change, or to immediately apply a change that turned out to be wrong.

It's a bit silly to have to take a screenshot of old settings to be able to back up to them in case you accidentally screw something up (which sadly, I am not entirely immune to )

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

The problem with that is that you don't really know it did anything when you did push the button...

But it's very much a generational thing, I suspect. When saving had to be manual, we expected it and can't get used to the idea it could be entirely automatic. But for those who grew up in an era where storage was fast and cheap, the idea something doesn't just persist is entirely alien.

I do agree it's a generational thing, for sure!

That said, I'm a lot more certain that something happens if I press a button and afterwards the button is disabled and/or the "data needs to be saved" indicator goes away (to show the changes have been saved) than when I just have to click out of a window and hope.

Basically, I don't really trust any OS to save anything
I've sadly routinely found that automatic applying of settings or saving of data doesn't always work and worse, these days generally gives no errors when it doesn't work. It usually just silenty fails, which is the worst possible solution IMHO. Note that IOS and Android also seem to do this at least in some places.

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by Geordie-Jedi

@DisasterIncarna

In all honesty, I think that Linux is the closest thing to running an Amiga.
With the ability to change almost anything about the OS / DE.
The software (both FOSS and OSS) and paid for software.
The community as a whole, most people are really helpful and welcoming.

I just get a real Amiga vibe from the Linux scene.

its a shame that http://www.lysator.liu.se/~marcus/amiwm.html doesnt get more love, yeah it looks like a basic workbench with no visual improvements and perhaps sticks a bit too much to imitating workbench rather than simply taking "some" workbench stuff and importing them to a modern linux environment but damn is it a starting good effort. A good mix of nifty Workbench features mixed with modern nix would be amazing, with the impossible wishlist being something similar to what WINE does for Windows Programs but for running Amiga programs native on such a linux system.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by roondar

Oh yes, various serious pieces of software do this. PyCharm instantly springs to mind. Word also does this in it's newest version after you've saved once. At work I use PowerBI, which does require you to save in it's development environment, but does not need you to OK changes in settings or configurations. Which has already led to all sorts of problems when it decides not to save a change, or to immediately apply a change that turned out to be wrong.

I find it mindboggling. Are your really saying these programs do not have "Save As" ability, especially Word?

About settings, yeah, now I recall that actually Windows started doing it around #10, I think, and I find it quite irritating (even if it seems to mostly do save the settings - though often it will change the privacy ones after update, or occasionally accidentially-on-purpose forget the "Open With" setting).

Regarding Workbench, I'm an extremely casual user - have only started using it a few years ago, since bitd I didn't have an HDD - and here's two things I'm definitely not missing: having to CleanUp the the mess of icons every time I open a new directory, and then having to Snapshot them
in order to not have to do it again. And even then, the Snapshot is not always reliable.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by DisasterIncarna

its a shame that http://www.lysator.liu.se/~marcus/amiwm.html doesnt get more love, yeah it looks like a basic workbench with no visual improvements and perhaps sticks a bit too much to imitating workbench rather than simply taking "some" workbench stuff and importing them to a modern linux environment but damn is it a starting good effort. A good mix of nifty Workbench features mixed with modern nix would be amazing, with the impossible wishlist being something similar to what WINE does for Windows Programs but for running Amiga programs native on such a linux system.

[ Show youtube player ]

[DisasterIncarna]

ah, nice video, looks damned good, does look like a great idea basically taking advantage os a modern OS and trying to Workbench'ify it, even better if you can run all you need from 1 place.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by DisasterIncarna

ah, nice video, looks damned good, does look like a great idea basically taking advantage os a modern OS and trying to Workbench'ify it, even better if you can run all you need from 1 place.

It will be one route for Aros... there will be Aros native (X86 and AMD64) but also Aros software running native as real linux app (AxRuntime) or with a kind of WINE solution in Linux based on a Amiga desktop that is also real Linux desktop. Propably Scalos, also Magellan is a option. My personal favorite regarding getting both amiga feeling and high configuration is Scalos. We will see. So it is in my view potentially what people ask for.

[DisasterIncarna]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

It will be one route for Aros... there will be Aros native (X86 and AMD64) but also Aros software running native as real linux app (AxRuntime) or with a kind of WINE solution in Linux based on a Amiga desktop that is also real Linux desktop. Propably Scalos, also Magellan is a option. My personal favorite regarding getting both amiga feeling and high configuration is Scalos. We will see. So it is in my view potentially what people ask for.

it would certainly beat the higher cpu overhead of running a whole emulator/winuae and relying on winlaunch/hostrun to open linux programs, doing it all linux native sounds like a great idea.

[Arne]

No constant disk access or random processes spontaneously going 100%. WB would just do stuff when I told it to. If not, there was probably a virus. Nowadays there's no way to tell.

Lack of hover-over stuff. Popups give me mouse pointer parking paranoia.

Icon frames, size variation and positioning, yeah. I'm not sure if it was a good way to do things, but it was certainly fun.

Assigns and RAM disk was neat, too.

---

On new macs I think "Save file as ..." is missing from File/ unless you enable it on some obscure settings. There's a clone/copy thing instead iirc.

As for windows... I don't think it's /for/ a specific group of people, i.e. it doesn't seem like they're trying to make the best product to wow people. It's more of a fishing hook design, too full of dark patterns to be considered benign and helpful. It's quite exhausting having to fend the stuff off then seeing it sneakily re-enable after an update. Most people are not tech savvy, mind, and computers becoming so convoluted they're almost a black box to tech savvy people as well. Phones are just a magical picture tablet you make gestures at, hoping some eldritch tech ether horror doesn't get you.