The ATARI ST was great because....

[commie1974]

Originally Posted by Skope

Aaaaargh!!!
Where can we find this masterpiece for use on real hardware? I've been looking around the web for a long time, with no luck... Anyone to upload it in the zone, please?

Anyway, the Atari was(is) a little nice machine, it was never *GREAT* but I really like it because it was a genuine child of its era's technology and home-computing subculture... ofcoz Amiga was, is and will always be MANY steps ahead!
In fact I believe that it's pointless to compare these 2 machines (like also e.g. C64 with ZX Spectrum), they belong to different categories. The only obvious reason for this comparison is the MARKETING war between the 2 companies which was/is of little interest to their customers and users

[Nishicorn]

YM2149F-chip. Inbuilt MIDI. Great songs made with it (and I mean pure chiptunes, not the MIDI stuff).

Looks great, albeit a bit grey. The design and style of the casing is just so quirky but sleek at the same time, how could anyone not love it? Cheapest 16-bit experience back in the day that gave you access to great games that could never be done on 8-bit computers. Slightly more powerful CPU than in the Amiga.

Graphical abilities that surpass the normal 8-bit standard of the day by far, at least technically speaking (resolution, color amount, and memory and CPU power that allows it).

I don't know much about the Atari ST's demoscene as of yet, because I don't have a real Atari ST, and emulators don't seem to let me use a proper lores resolution on my CRT television (so what's the point of watching demos if I can't do it on a bright CRT television or monitor?)..

However, from what little I've seen, is very inspirational and has some great graphics, too.

I really want to get my hands on a real Atari ST so I can both compose and do graphics on it (can't wait to use Atari side's graphics tools and get those wonderfully 'non-soft' or 'sharp' bass sounds of the YM2149F at my disposal), and finally watch demos properly and of course, play some games.

On the games department, it's probably going to be a bit rare to have Atari ST-version of a game be better than any other platform, or 'the definite version' in some way (C64 has many such games - from Maniac Mansion to those great Elite coin-up conversions - not to mention Amiga, which has things like Moonstone and Turrican II that were never really surpassed on other systems).

The Atari ST is a bit of an underdog of the computer world, so I feel a bit sorry - it's not really a bad, little machine, and I really want one. It's like Charlie Brown's christmas tree - at first, it may seem a little rough and obsolete, but with a little care and proper usage, you can make it shine (I think - so far, I have not owned one, so can't say for sure - but if those wonderful ST captures of the beautiful musics are any indication, I am confident about this).

[Nishicorn]

Originally Posted by commie1974

Aaaaargh!!!
Where can we find this masterpiece for use on real hardware? I've been looking around the web for a long time, with no luck... Anyone to upload it in the zone, please?

Which masterpiece are we talking about? The game 'Aaargh'? The image doesn't show anything viable.

In fact I believe that it's pointless to compare these 2 machines (like also e.g. C64 with ZX Spectrum), they belong to different categories.

I wouldn't go as far as that - it's never pointless to compare things. There are many ways you can compare Atari ST to other computer, and still make it a viable computer.

It's a bit like the MSX machines in some ways - the original MSX can't seem to do smooth scrolling, it has no filters in its sound chip, and it sounds pretty raw. The colors are uninteresting and the resolution it uses is weird (but makes graphics look sharper and higher-res (not necessarily better) than the common C64 160x200 resolution graphics).

However, when you listen to some of the Japanese musics created for the MSX games (Space Manbow, Salamander, Nemesis 2, etc.), you can realize the potential, energy, atmosphere and interest of its soundchip, and if you play some of those games, you can also realize that despite the jerky scrolling, those games are actually awesome and play really well.. and the graphics look so 'unusual' from a C64 user's perspective, that it's like a refreshing visit to a different world altogether.

So in many ways, the MSX machines remain interesting and expressive, -even- though they can't quite reach the heights the Commodore 64 managed to obtain and maintain.

In the same way, the Atari ST, while not as powerful in most things as the Amiga, and doesn't have quite as versatile a soundchip as the SID, can still get those 'sharp' or 'non-soft' basses out of it and other aural tricks I never thought possible on that chip, and amazing things have been created on and for it, and it's also still very capable of nice graphics (some of the 'cracker intro graphics' are actually very inspirational and amazing)

I attached one such image here, and here are a few more of my favorites:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/SqjpKV9

For the reader's convenience, here's a big gallery of such pictures:

http://www.exxoshost.co.uk/atari/games/pompy/index.htm

After looking through all that, everyone surely must admit there's at least some kind of interesting potential about Atari ST. I really regret not familiarizing myself more with the whole Atari ST scene, games, demos, graphics, musics and the whole side back in the day, but hopefully there's still time. I love many other Atari machines already, from the 2600 to the 800 XL, so it would be really exciting to add another Atari system to my computer selection.

(I don't want to call it 'collection', as I keep every computer and console in 'instantly usable' condition, and every computer and system has its own use and purpose - nothing is just for the sake of 'collecting' or for show. I use C64 to make music and sound effects, my old DOS PC to make music and sound effects, my Amiga to make graphics and animations, and to watch demos, and so on - even the old VIC-20 gets its share of creativity, because it has a quirky noise wave that I just love, and every system's square wave sounds and looks slightly different (even audibly different!).. not so when you use emulation, where square wave seems to be 'standardized'.

You have to kinda wonder what else is standardized.. this is why I am anxious to get rid of Atari ST emulation and get the real machine to get the REAL experience, regardless of what the consensus is about the state of emulation of any machine. It's always different on a real machine. (Even Super Famicom, as well as it's emulated, is better experience on a real system).

The only obvious reason for this comparison is the MARKETING war between the 2 companies

Contextual mistake; you're not speficying the 'companies' you refer to. Referring without specifying is sloppy, and confusing to the viewer/reader/listener.

Atari ST is not a company, Amiga .. well, it may be a company now, and it was originally, but there was a long period when it was 'Commodore', not 'Amiga' that had the marketing.

In any case, there are other reasons for comparisons, don't be limiting or narrow-minded. Let people compare as much as they want to. Comparing is fun, and I couldn't live without it. You learn a LOT by doing comparisons, and as a side-effect, at least I usually start appreciating both sides the more I know about them. Let people know about systems.

which was/is of little interest to their customers and users

Comparisons are always interesting to people, users and customers.

In the case of Spectrum, once you know how little the computer has to offer, you automatically respect the results people have been able to squeeze out of that itty bitty thing. I also love the monochrome-style graphics, and how well people have been able to create beauty with such limitations - many loading pictures are better on the Spectrum than on the C64, actually ('artistically' better, for example, or the higher resolution makes them more pleasant, or the C64 side was just done sloppily, etc..)

Every computer can be interesting, every sound chip has its uses (I am even interested in the 1-bit PC speaker, because of what I have heard done on it - it can even play Amiga modules, though in a bit lowered quality - try playing Pinball Fantasies on soundcardless old DOS PC, for example), it's just that people judge, discard, insult and throw away perfectly good and interesting things and don't realize how much they should appreciate these technological marvels.

One thing that interests me about Atari ST and even Spectrum, is the limitations. Amiga is a bit boring sometimes, exactly because it's so powerful. Limitation is a great source of inspiration, as the old saying goes.

Do you remember when you experienced C64 or Amiga 'surpassing its limitations' the first time? Wasn't that an awesome feeling? "I didn't know it could DO that!"

That's definitely what people have accomplished on the Atari and Spectrum scenes multiple times, and I would love to experience all of it on real systems.

[NLS]

Originally Posted by Nishicorn

YM2149F-chip. Inbuilt MIDI.

How is a 1978 chip that was already used in Amstrad CPC and couldn't hold the candle to SID, be a "great thing" when compared to Paula?

Inbuilt MIDI was a great business move (apparently), as musicians of the time (most clueless yet in tech subjects) didn't seem to realize that MIDI was dirt cheap to add to Amiga also (as the port already supported MIDI mode IIRC, it just needed a physical adapter) and they would get same thing and yet a much better in-built audio chip. And pre-emptive multi-tasking.
This great business move, led to great music software made for ST.
This also helped Apple later (!), as people moving away from ST, remembered Amiga as the "enemy" and chose to move to (4th and up gen) Macs and the software moved there accordingly.

But anyway...

[Pyromania]

@NLS

You are so right. Commodore added MIDI to the CDTV but by then it was already way too late.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by NLS

Inbuilt MIDI was a great business move (apparently), as musicians of the time (most clueless yet in tech subjects) didn't seem to realize that MIDI was dirt cheap to add to Amiga also (as the port already supported MIDI mode IIRC, it just needed a physical adapter) and they would get same thing and yet a much better in-built audio chip.

ST was cheaper than Amiga and had killer apps such as Cubase. It was mostly used for sequencing so the chip didn't really matter. Maybe they weren't so clueless after all.

[Jope]

Also, no multitasking to mess with the timing.

[lordofchaos]

Lot of people mentioning what the Atari ST lacked and how it compares to the more capable Amiga, but for me it really was a great computer, a more affordable option into the 16 Bit world, kind of special for that reason alone. Even the bleeps and bloops of the sound chip I still find charming to this day.

[Galahad/FLT]

My opinion of the ST has changed over the years, but thats mostly down to the ability of some of the programmers rather than the machine itself.

I'm not so harsh on it as I once was, for the price, it was a good machine, sure, it wasn't quite upto the standards of the Amiga, and the STe should have been the A500's equal, but some of the things programmers could do with the ST is pretty remarkable.

Obviously not every effect produced on Amiga was replicated on ST, but the majority were, and all done using the CPU.

The blitter yawns over something like a sine scroller, those ST guys were doing similar things using just the processor, which is some feat of coding when you see just how much work that poor CPU is having to do to compete.

I've mellowed quite a lot over the ST, that 5 months I had one wasn't long enough to judge the machine, but at the same time, the ST still did harm to the Amiga with how easy it was for the likes of Tiertex and others to farm ST games onto the Amiga by barely using the hardware of the latter.

It still irks me beyond belief some of the shite US Gold released and thought was OK.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

I've mellowed quite a lot over the ST, that 5 months I had one wasn't long enough to judge the machine, but at the same time, the ST still did harm to the Amiga with how easy it was for the likes of Tiertex and others to farm ST games onto the Amiga by barely using the hardware of the latter.

It still irks me beyond belief some of the shite US Gold released and thought was OK.

They were all mostly cheap bastards during the development of those lazy ports, that's one main reason I hate the ST.

[dreadnought]

So you hate the machine because of what some codeshops/publishers did. It's the same with the CPC crowd holding a forever grudge vs ZX Spectrum. For me this logic doesn't doesn't add up. Hate the players, not the hardware. Even if that, because it's likely that in some cases it wasn't just pure greed, but economic realities.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

So you hate the machine because of what some codeshops/publishers did. It's the same with the CPC crowd holding a forever grudge vs ZX Spectrum. For me this logic doesn't doesn't add up. Hate the players, not the hardware. Even if that, because it's likely that in some cases it wasn't just pure greed, but economic realities.

Think whatever you like, thats the way it is.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

So you hate the machine because of what some codeshops/publishers did.

Some? How about most?

Put it this way, I look at huge YouTube videos with several hours of gameplay footage on Amiga from hundreds of games, about 10 seconds each, and I'm shocked at how many have such appalling framerates or just general object motions on screen, both 2D and 3D.

I am presuming that these games in particular mostly originated on the ST and the Amiga suffered from there being no effort to improve on them.

This is why I don't like the ST, because it made the Amiga its bitch for so long, the ST gorging on banquets and feasts in popularity while feeding the Amiga its scraps from under the table, and every now and then demanding sexual favours of it (ie. bitch).

It's the same with the CPC crowd holding a forever grudge vs ZX Spectrum. For me this logic doesn't doesn't add up. Hate the players, not the hardware. Even if that, because it's likely that in some cases it wasn't just pure greed, but economic realities.

Why blame the players? They were probably just happy to accept any games. Economic realities? So they didn't have the resources?

[lmimmfn]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

So you hate the machine because of what some codeshops/publishers did. It's the same with the CPC crowd holding a forever grudge vs ZX Spectrum. For me this logic doesn't doesn't add up. Hate the players, not the hardware. Even if that, because it's likely that in some cases it wasn't just pure greed, but economic realities.

Its true though and we CPC owners back then absolutely HATED spectrum shovelware. It was the same on the Amiga getting direct ST ports.

I hated the ST back in the day, played it several times and thought WTF, but i like the ST now, it was capable just lacked hardware.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

thats the way it is.

Yeah, seems it is - for some people. It's also pretty sad, seeing as the year now is 2021, and it doesn't make any more sense than it did back then. But at least we're much older and should know better.

Blaming the machines is childish, since it's beyond obvious that lame ports were the fault of the devs and publishers (even though it's also quite possible some of you would do the same if put in their place, for variety of reasons, eg. deadlines, skills, resources, funds, etc...).

The other thing is the assumption that if the ST/ZX did not exist, somehow Amiga & CPC would be getting heaps of high quality, original games. This is wishful thinking at best and there is zero proof it would indeed be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if opposite was true, especially when it comes to CPC. If there was no easy ports from other, similar machines, it could be that the market would shrink away from these micros, which weren't exactly setting the world on fire when first released.


But, hey, let's not get some pesky logic get in a way of a good ol' hate-in

[lmimmfn]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Yeah, seems it is - for some people. It's also pretty sad, seeing as the year now is 2021, and it doesn't make any more sense than it did back then. But at least we're much older and should know better.

Blaming the machines is childish, since it's beyond obvious that lame ports were the fault of the devs and publishers (even though it's also quite possible some of you would do the same if put in their place, for variety of reasons, eg. deadlines, skills, resources, funds, etc...).

The other thing is the assumption that if the ST/ZX did not exist, somehow Amiga & CPC would be getting heaps of high quality, original games. This is wishful thinking at best and there is zero proof it would indeed be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if opposite was true, especially when it comes to CPC. If there was no easy ports from other, similar machines, it could be that the market would shrink away from these micros, which weren't exactly setting the world on fire when first released.


But, hey, let's not get some pesky logic get in a way of a good ol' hate-in

When you talk about the CPC, i dont think it is true that it wouldnt have had the same amount of releases if the Spectrum didnt exist. The CPC had huge user bases in France and Spain, most games software was developed in the uk.
Take Rtype as an example, after the Speccy port was finished, the CPC dev was given only a few weeks to deliver the CPC version. Richard Alpin was a programmer who did fantastic CPC games, e. g. 128k CPC Double Dragon 1, 2, Shinobi.
The poorest publishers shoved out Speccy ports for the CPC but over time it was to their detrement. US Gold was great for CPC initially, Gauntlet etc. then became one of the worst due to Tiertex, second only to Domark who's ports on the CPC were always abysmal and when i had a CPC i would avoid any Domark games like the plague.

[Hercules]

My dating life is like playing my Atari ST ...
Lots of nostalgia, but I end up playing with myself.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

When you talk about the CPC, i dont think it is true that it wouldnt have had the same amount of releases if the Spectrum didnt exist. The CPC had huge user bases in France and Spain, most games software was developed in the uk.

It was developed in the UK because the devs had 2 years headstart and honed their skills on the uber-popular Spectrum. If the ZX did not exist it's quite possible people would jump on C64 or Atari instead, and then who knows what the CPC situation would be having no Z80 predecessor. Quite possibly much worse, if the tide shifted to 6502. Even once mighty Atari was getting short shrift at some point, so CPC with its lowest market penetration could fade away much earlier, if not for the fact there was easily ported huge software catalogue already.

It's not the point anyway, since this is all tea-leaves speculation. The crux of the matter is that you can't blame some hapless hardware for people's actions and market's whims.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

Yeah, seems it is - for some people. It's also pretty sad, seeing as the year now is 2021, and it doesn't make any more sense than it did back then. But at least we're much older and should know better.

Blaming the machines is childish, since it's beyond obvious that lame ports were the fault of the devs and publishers (even though it's also quite possible some of you would do the same if put in their place, for variety of reasons, eg. deadlines, skills, resources, funds, etc...).

The other thing is the assumption that if the ST/ZX did not exist, somehow Amiga & CPC would be getting heaps of high quality, original games. This is wishful thinking at best and there is zero proof it would indeed be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if opposite was true, especially when it comes to CPC. If there was no easy ports from other, similar machines, it could be that the market would shrink away from these micros, which weren't exactly setting the world on fire when first released.


But, hey, let's not get some pesky logic get in a way of a good ol' hate-in

Drink it all up, because that's the way it is.

Cry some more or are you done?

[jizmo]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

The other thing is the assumption that if the ST/ZX did not exist, somehow Amiga & CPC would be getting heaps of high quality, original games.

^This.

If ST didn't exist there's absolutely no guarantee most of the the coders back then could've make a proper use of the Amiga chipset. One could argue coders did not really know how to push the Atari ST to its limits either, as demos and other more recent game projects have shown.

If ST never was I'm sure it would've still been pretty much the same story of most of the games for Amiga being quite basic, with those few exceptional titles by exceptional coders and above average teams.