Are we stuck with Protracker's format forever?

[KONEY]

Originally Posted by no9

What does MED format offer different than MOD, soundwise?

Soundwise obviously nothing because output is from the same chip but OctaMED is much more advanced than Protracker, has more commands and even has command pages so more FXs can be applied at the same line. It can also save .MOD but you lose some of the features. It may use more CPU cycles but makes more things.

Anyway I was hoping a discussion like this was opened because I tried to use MED asm playroutines but I'm stuck because it looks like they're not meant to work if OS is killed. But i'm quite a n00b at coding so I may be wrong.

If anyone cares to help there's a thread here: https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=104840

[no9]

Originally Posted by KONEY

Soundwise obviously nothing because output is from the same chip

I'm trying to get rid of this suppoused "obvioussnes", because I think it is not obvious. There are good examples like tracks by Paul Van Der Valk in Turbo Imploder 3 and 4.

[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]

They definitely have their own flavour and don't sound like 99% of Protracker chiptunes. Of course it doesn't mean you can't create such sound preparing sounds outside of Protracker, one by one, or just put them in a loop and end up with 800KB module. But Paul did it in elegant way using Amiga chip(s).

Please don't take this obiviousity as granted.

Originally Posted by KONEY

but OctaMED is much more advanced than Protracker, has more commands and even has command pages so more FXs can be applied at the same line. It can also save .MOD but you lose some of the features. It may use more CPU cycles but makes more things.

Ok, it is better. But I hope you see what kind of 'better' I delude here

Anyway I was hoping a discussion like this was opened because I tried to use MED asm playroutines but I'm stuck because it looks like they're not meant to work if OS is killed. But i'm quite a n00b at coding so I may be wrong.

If anyone cares to help there's a thread here: https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=104840

Good luck with that!

[Photon]

Regarding title, we are already not stuck with Protracker's format. There has been competition before and after.

Having a standard isn't all bad. It's a known from which to build and customize. When someone has picked it up, they have seen room for improvement, and this has then created a slightly modified format which hasn't been supported widely enough to become the new format.

For reasons big, small or random, musicians haven't picked up or wanted to adapt to the new trackers, and in some cases devs haven't been inspired or unable to complete them fully. The tracker must be 100% bug free (PT 2.3D etc isn't, but is good enough), and the player must play the song 100% exactly as in the tracker (this may be true for many Protracker versions, before or after PT 2.3D, see bottom).

Now we know better than to break stuff, so we tread lightly and make as small changes as possible to this known platform.

The improvements I could see in a 4-channel player would be in creating instruments and playing them (vibrato, portamento etc not done by step commands), more efficient editing (maybe skipping the track editing completely), and effects that are less esoteric and technical, and more music-focused. Instruments could be synthetic, and still not take lots of CPU/RAM.

Such a tracker could be quite different from Protracker, while Protracker is a good enough and direct music editor to quickly hammer out music ideas. The new tracker could be as awesome and efficient to use as you like. There's nothing stopping this from happening - and to me it would be a great bonus if it imported notedata and instruments from a Protracker 2.3D module to ease the transition.

I've often thought to depart from the format and write a new music program. Unless you base it off PT2.3D and add what you can, months will go to building the framework and UI, and months more to write the application and player. I think this is the daunting thing in departing from the format, and still - quite a few have done it, especially in the early years when necessity was the mother of invention.

Maybe we just don't know enough of the other programs? Their features, which version is reliable to compose in, and has a faithful playroutine with estimates of CPU/RAM consumption?

I'd love a thread with such a list!

[pink^abyss]

Originally Posted by DanScott

But memory overhead is still the same. It creates samples that fill up chip ram. You could take the samples it creates and load them into protracker and create the same song, and it would have roughly the same memory overhead once in chip ram.

Edit - It does have some other features I believe, but at the expense of a slower play routine. When we are creating Amiga demos, often we are pushing the CPU right down to the last raster line of time. We require a fast replay routine

Dan is right, the Pretracker replayer is slow, compared to optimized Protracker replayers, but that doesn't mean its too slow for games or demos. ' [ Show youtube player ]' and ' [ Show youtube player ]' used it and both had enough free cpu to create a state of the art A500 production.

The main benefits of Pretracker are that it takes much less RAM for pattern data and much less chipram. The 'Tiny Bubble' music took 3.6kb chipram and 17kb normal ram (for all 8 songs).

Pretracker can create sounds similar like the Korg Wavestation or Prophet VS do. You can get sounds out of it which are technically not possible in Protracker on A500. Such sounds can loop flawlessly and evolve over long time. Chipram on A500 would not be large enough to play it even as a very long sample (not to mention the inferior noisy sample quality).

Pretracker supports game relevant stuff like soundFx and subSongs.

Also making music with it has benefits:
-Automatic note delay on next channel (can get interupted by fx)
-Single channel patterns (less duplication)
-5 octaves (Protracker supports only 3)
-Octave 3-5 are playing at maximum amiga output quality
-ADSR envelope
-Vibrato envelope
-Instruments are like patterns for itself, which need much less typing for the composer

In my view you can't recreate a proper Pretracker song with same memory constraints in Protracker nor with the same quality when using the same chipmem budget.

Also i like that Pretracker allowed me to create new 'timbres' that doesn't sound like typical amiga songs.. but thats of course matter of taste..

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by pink^abyss

Dan is right, the Pretracker replayer is slow, compared to optimized Protracker replayers, but that doesn't mean its too slow for games or demos. ' [ Show youtube player ]' and ' [ Show youtube player ]' used it and both had enough free cpu to create a state of the art A500 production.

The main benefits of Pretracker are that it takes much less RAM for pattern data and much less chipram. The 'Tiny Bubble' music took 3.6kb chipram and 17kb normal ram (for all 8 songs).

Pretracker can create sounds similar like the Korg Wavestation or Prophet VS do. You can get sounds out of it which are technically not possible in Protracker on A500. Such sounds can loop flawlessly and evolve over long time. Chipram on A500 would not be large enough to play it even as a very long sample (not to mention the inferior noisy sample quality).

Pretracker supports game relevant stuff like soundFx and subSongs.

Also making music with it has benefits:
-Automatic note delay on next channel (can get interupted by fx)
-Single channel patterns (less duplication)
-5 octaves (Protracker supports only 3)
-Octave 3-5 are playing at maximum amiga output quality
-ADSR envelope
-Vibrato envelope
-Instruments are like patterns for itself, which need much less typing for the composer

In my view you can't recreate a proper Pretracker song with same memory constraints in Protracker nor with the same quality when using the same chipmem budget.

Also i like that Pretracker allowed me to create new 'timbres' that doesn't sound like typical amiga songs.. but thats of course matter of taste..

I am super impressed by it.
Much easier to create music in this than in protracker where Samples always kind of sound weird when you don't play them in their original pitch.

[no9]

Originally Posted by Photon

I'd love a thread with such a list!

Me too! Maybe some lonely wandering coder looking for new life purpose would stomp on it accidentally and get inspired instead of assuming that we seen and heard already everything here

Originally Posted by pink^abyss

Also i like that Pretracker allowed me to create new 'timbres' that doesn't sound like typical amiga songs.. but thats of course matter of taste..

I praise you for that. My dream tracker would steal and unify many ideas you developed in AHX and Pretracker.

One thing bugs me though...

[Lineof7s]

Originally Posted by dunny

well you're in luck. We've got a tracker interface (that loads pt, we'll see about exporting maybe) on the to-do list for a future version of fl studio.

Gasp!!

[alcomatt]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Going with what is already available, a decent alternative might be use the xm format with 8 bit samples and four channels tunes only (or eight with some channel switching); file format specs are out there, milkytracker uses it natively, has separate volume control, it has more sample slots and some interesting audio tuning features rarely used.

BUT, i wonder,are there paula-friendly four channel xm replay routines out there?

You would probably lose a lot of features to make it work well on Paula, panning, ADSR envelopes, etc would probably be too much for the CPU to handle in.

Any replayer which would have to resort to using cpu to mix the channels would probably be out of question on unaccelerated Amiga, and even on those it is quite a penalty.
There used to be DigiBooster (non pro) which did 8 channels but even this would probably too much for bog standard A500/600

I guess if you want top notch tracker these days you'd have to go PC and use Renoise (available for Linux or Mac if Windows gives you allergies) or even OpenMPT.

[alcomatt]

Originally Posted by Tomislav

There are already other Amiga module formats: S3M, XM and IT. Also there is MED format which is different than MOD format.

To be precise, S3M(Screamtracker), XM (Fast Tracker II) and IT (ImpulseTracker) were all PC tracker formats. They did not originate on Amiga.

[alcomatt]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I am not asking for a Fruity Loops like program on the Amiga.
I use Bubsy's Protracker for Mac OS to create mods for my games.

If there was some mod export feature for Cubase or Reaper, I'd use that.

I even fiddled with the idea to do an converter for Electron Octatrack to Protracker format.

I have been using music hardware and software for 25 years, and started right after trackers were common.
It just feels so weird to use one and lose stuff I did all the time because I clicked the wrong obtuse button somewhere.

This has crossed my mine with DigiTakt and DigiTone, to me all Elektron gear are trackers in disguise really. Not surprising given their Demoscene heritage. Have you tried Renoise?

[alcomatt]

Originally Posted by h0ffman

We already do this in the demos eon and way too rude. The drum loops are rendered on the fly in the background while the demo is running. Saves a lot of memory and can have a near infinite number of loops. The mix routine is very quick but is limited to all samples being at the same pitch hence why its great for drums.

Thanks. Good to know. I was wondering if this was some sort of pre-calculated mod2smpl.

[alcomatt]

Originally Posted by pink^abyss

Dan is right, the Pretracker replayer is slow, compared to optimized Protracker replayers, but that doesn't mean its too slow for games or demos. ' [ Show youtube player ]' and ' [ Show youtube player ]' used it and both had enough free cpu to create a state of the art A500 production.

The main benefits of Pretracker are that it takes much less RAM for pattern data and much less chipram. The 'Tiny Bubble' music took 3.6kb chipram and 17kb normal ram (for all 8 songs).

Pretracker can create sounds similar like the Korg Wavestation or Prophet VS do. You can get sounds out of it which are technically not possible in Protracker on A500. Such sounds can loop flawlessly and evolve over long time. Chipram on A500 would not be large enough to play it even as a very long sample (not to mention the inferior noisy sample quality).

Pretracker supports game relevant stuff like soundFx and subSongs.

Also making music with it has benefits:
-Automatic note delay on next channel (can get interupted by fx)
-Single channel patterns (less duplication)
-5 octaves (Protracker supports only 3)
-Octave 3-5 are playing at maximum amiga output quality
-ADSR envelope
-Vibrato envelope
-Instruments are like patterns for itself, which need much less typing for the composer

In my view you can't recreate a proper Pretracker song with same memory constraints in Protracker nor with the same quality when using the same chipmem budget.

Also i like that Pretracker allowed me to create new 'timbres' that doesn't sound like typical amiga songs.. but thats of course matter of taste..

Thanks Pink, amazing stuff. Looks like I will have to dust off my tracker gloves and check it out. Except for the exe generation, is there any other way those tunes can be played by Amiga? A standalone player perhaps?

[Wavemaker]

Originally Posted by Dunny

Well you're in luck. We've got a tracker interface (that loads PT, we'll see about exporting maybe) on the to-do list for a future version of FL Studio.

That sounds like heaven. Not sure if exporting would make a lot of sense as you would basically lose the point of using FL Studio at all, 99% of its features are not supported by the format. But if there was a mode which only included PT compatible features (and 8 bit samples) that could be quite revolutionary. Not sure if it's worth the effort tough. Loading PT mods on the other hand would give your users access to an enormous library of tracks to cover or remix and is probably a simple thing to do.

BTW pretty neat that there's a FL Studio dev in this forum

[Dunny]

Originally Posted by Wavemaker

That sounds like heaven. Not sure if exporting would make a lot of sense as you would basically lose the point of using FL Studio at all, 99% of its features are not supported by the format. But if there was a mode which only included PT compatible features (and 8 bit samples) that could be quite revolutionary. Not sure if it's worth the effort tough. Loading PT mods on the other hand would give your users access to an enormous library of tracks to cover or remix and is probably a simple thing to do.

You're right about export - and given that pretty much all of the output in FL Studio is via Plugins (both Fruity and VST) then there's really no point in exporting any Amiga format.

But for import - yes, the point is mostly to get Amiga tunes into FL.

BTW pretty neat that there's a FL Studio dev in this forum

We're everywhere

[pink^abyss]

Originally Posted by Steril707

I am super impressed by it.
Much easier to create music in this than in protracker where Samples always kind of sound weird when you don't play them in their original pitch.

Thanks When you use the wave modulation stuff then 'sample' playspeed is no more bound to pitch. Therefore you can get real cool sounding bass sounds for instance, which are not possible in ProTracker (without sampling each bass note for itself).

[pink^abyss]

Originally Posted by alcomatt

Thanks Pink, amazing stuff. Looks like I will have to dust off my tracker gloves and check it out. Except for the exe generation, is there any other way those tunes can be played by Amiga? A standalone player perhaps?

PreTracker has a binary replayer included and asm example
(and buildin exe export is also there for the non technical people).


PreTracker was already used in a couple of non abyss intros and also in a Amiga diskmag recently.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by pink^abyss

Thanks When you use the wave modulation stuff then 'sample' playspeed is no more bound to pitch. Therefore you can get real cool sounding bass sounds for instance, which are not possible in ProTracker (without sampling each bass note for itself).

I've had a query about Romeo Knight's "Boesendorfer PSS" for a while now:

For a piano mod, it's easily among the best music of its kind I've ever heard, but I wonder if the reason it sounds so realistic is because each note is a separate sample. Is that the case? Or every couple of notes at least?

I would imagine so, because otherwise, the piano tones would sound longer and longer for the lower pitches, and vice versa.

[h0ffman]

Originally Posted by Foebane

I've had a query about Romeo Knight's "Boesendorfer PSS" for a while now:

For a piano mod, it's easily among the best music of its kind I've ever heard, but I wonder if the reason it sounds so realistic is because each note is a separate sample. Is that the case? Or every couple of notes at least?

I would imagine so, because otherwise, the piano tones would sound longer and longer for the lower pitches, and vice versa.

Its called harmonics. Natural instruments have different harmonics depending on the note, how its played with a near infinite number of variances.

For example a modern vst plugin which emulates a piano can have a multitude of samples just for one note. Stretch that out over all the octaves and you're talking a lot of data. If you're on a budget you can allow one sample to stretch a few notes up and down but stretch it further and they'll star sounding weird.

[Lineof7s]

Originally Posted by Dunny

We're everywhere

Believe me, you don't know the half of it!

[KONEY]

Originally Posted by no9

They definitely have their own flavour and don't sound like 99% of Protracker chiptunes. Of
Ok, it is better. But I hope you see what kind of 'better' I delude here

Not sure... but since you brought up the chiptune topic I wonder if you have any confidence with OctaMED SynthSounds. They're much more than a looping waveform, some custom scripting can be applied and waveform can change over time. All this embedded in the format.

Originally Posted by no9

Good luck with that!

I'm going to need much more than luck