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Old 10 August 2024, 10:32   #1
danboid
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Question Carmack on Dread or Grind

Has John Carmack publicly commented on Dread or Grind?


I emailed KK/Altair this morning and offered to send him a pre-built Uzebox Omega with case etc if he writes a Uzebox game or demo.


The Uzebox the fastest 8 bit console and the only fully open source one so I'd love to see what he can squeeze out of it of its rather restricted RAM.
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Old 10 August 2024, 10:48   #2
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Incredible. I've never heard of this device till now!

Just checked out this video from 16 years ago. Nice chip tunes!

[ Show youtube player ]


Was there any further development on this Doom port?

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 10 August 2024, 10:56   #3
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Speaking of Uzebox chip tunes, probably my greatest claim to fame is that we did a Uzebox rendition of Rob Hubbard's C64 Commando theme for my Uzebox Atari Combat remake IKD and Rob emailed me to say it was a very good version.

I don't think that Doom port progressed beyond what you see in that video BUT the same developer who wrote that Uzebox Doom demo (and the great Uzebox game Joyrider) went on to write WolfensteinCGA, a rewrite of Wolfenstein which allows it to run on CGA graphics cards and using an 8088 CPU:

https://github.com/jhhoward/WolfensteinCGA

Last edited by danboid; 10 August 2024 at 11:12.
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Old 10 August 2024, 11:24   #4
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Has John Carmack publicly commented on Dread or Grind?
Why would he?
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Old 10 August 2024, 11:33   #5
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Why would he? He's one of the most famous (game) developers in the world and he occasionally does interviews. If he has been interviewed by any Amiga fans in recent years, there is a high chance they'd be asking him this.
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Old 10 August 2024, 11:46   #6
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Let me rephrase my question: Why would he care about Dread or Grind?
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Old 10 August 2024, 12:07   #7
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I was an Amiga owner in the early ninetines. I sold them all but I ended up buying an A600 about a decade ago.

The main reason I ditched the Amiga for the PC (Linux, in my case) was because the Amiga couldn't run Doom. I wasn't the only one who switched to the PC from the Amiga coz Doom. I think it was most everyone who was around at the time.

Back in the 90's, Carmack said Doom wasn't doable on the Amiga and I expect he was referring to 030 and 040 Amigas in the early 90's. Now, KK/Altair has done a Doom-alike on an unaccelerated, 7 Mhz A500 with 1 MB RAM which I should hope Carmack would appreciate as much as I do. He will have different standards to the rest of us but in my eyes, Dread and Grind are almost as revolutionary and impressive feats of coding as Doom and Quake were.
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Old 10 August 2024, 12:18   #8
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He will have different standards to the rest of us but in my eyes, Dread and Grind are almost as revolutionary and impressive feats of coding as Doom and Quake were.
It is 2024. There is nothing 'revolutionary' about a id Tech 1 alike engine on an almost 40 year old machine. It sure is impressive, but I really doubt you'd get more than 'That's nice' out of somebody who has been on the cutting edge of 3D game development for around two decades.
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Old 10 August 2024, 14:57   #9
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After seeing those games I'm sure Doom was possible on stock Amiga with a few sacrifices but his decision not to make an Amiga version will have most likely been business related, or maybe he just didn't have the expertise to get the most out of the Amiga.

I remember once buying a shooter for my Amiga 500 back in the day but it was like a dungeon game and you could only move in 4 fixed directions, so who would have questioned him back then?
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Old 10 August 2024, 15:10   #10
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I remember once buying a shooter for my Amiga 500 back in the day but it was like a dungeon game and you could only move in 4 fixed directions, so who would have questioned him back then?
That sounds like Death Mask.
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Old 10 August 2024, 15:14   #11
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That sounds like Death Mask.
Yep, that's the one!
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Old 10 August 2024, 15:43   #12
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That sounds like Death Mask.

If we end up playing Amiga games themed give us a clue then I want to be on TCD's team.
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Old 10 August 2024, 15:51   #13
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There was of course Gloom and Alien Breed 3D (2) but they both required a least an 020 and 2 MB RAM and even then they weren't really worthy rivals to Doom in the way that Duke Nukem 3D was, on the PC.

Of course all these games (DN3D, Doom and Quake) got open sourced and ported to the Amiga eventually but having something Doom-esqe on a 1 MB RAM A500 or ST is something I never thought I'd see.
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Old 11 August 2024, 23:08   #14
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Let me rephrase my question: Why would he care about Dread or Grind?
Yeah wrong John. Romero is the one who can't let the 90's go, Carmack is more worried about getting everything done that he wants to achieve before his mind goes. Hence he's now hammering on AI after his trip through VR space. FPS games are way, waaaaaaaaaay in the past.

If you ask questions about Doom to Carmack, he has a "let's get this over with" face. You ask Romero, he brings the beer.
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Old Yesterday, 00:55   #15
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thing is Doom realistically wasn't at all possible on the A500 and still isn't. The engine that was Grind wasn't going to turn up in that timeframe. The engines being made simply weren't doing it and everyone's expectation was that even the A1200 realistically couldn't attempt it either so there really was no hope on A500. I think rightly the statement that the A500 would never be able to see such a thing was true still but I do think Carmack would at least find it of interest to see what 25 years later has allowed

Realistically I think a game more approaching Doom than the Grind engine currently allows for is possible on the stock A1200 but that the stock A500 really is up against such a thing at least at an acceptable framerate. On the A500 I can imagine the engine potentially doing more and still being close to acceptable but that it would be very specifically done whereas the A1200 while still compromised of course would allow for a more closer Doom like design to it's levels. I think the Carmack comment was a fair one but I think he'd also enjoy seeing Grind
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Old Yesterday, 01:26   #16
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if he did see Grind he would probably say "that's a great wolfenstien3d clone, not doom", because while amazingly impressive, grind is wolf3d not doom, the only reason its seen as doom is because it used to use doom assets.
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Old Yesterday, 04:00   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisasterIncarna View Post
if he did see Grind he would probably say "that's a great wolfenstien3d clone, not doom", because while amazingly impressive, grind is wolf3d not doom, the only reason its seen as doom is because it used to use doom assets.
5:55

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old Yesterday, 04:15   #18
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5:55

[ Show youtube player ]

they have said themselves the variable hight geometry thing does not work properly/fully which is why every "official" map shown is a flat 3d maze like wolf3d. I'd love to see proper variable height doom maps but i believe in the proper grind thread somewhere is a statement saying its unlikely to be implemented.

https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...&postcount=104
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Old Yesterday, 08:02   #19
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the gameplay itself of Dread is I would argue more of Doom so it's currently in between the two I would say
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Old Yesterday, 08:03   #20
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@DisasterIncarna
Tsak didn't say unlikely, but it's low in the priority list.

Having (possibility) of variable height, you can't say it's wolf3D type of engine, but this is indeed much closer to Doom engine. I also remember KK mentioned (in the first thread) that variable height shouldn't affect speed too much, and with further optimizations, it might be "free" to implement.

Even without height implemented, Grind and Dread engine have some stuff that wolf 3D engine don't have. Like it can go few floors in height, and the walls can be rotated freely (not just square rooms with walls 90 degree rotation limit).
This is HUGE in graphics terms, and allows that levels looks much better then wolf3d levels... even in flat plane heights.

You're right though, that Carmack might think it's Wold 3D clone type of engine, but it's not really true.
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