Things the Amiga didn't get right from Day 1

[Chucky]

Yo needed a specialized disk with dir and list. and others did not care about that and wanted workbench,, it was for sure a specialized situation to keep YOUR needs.
the workbenchdisk was one to cover most needs. a generic system.

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by freehand

A 49 year old man telling a 50 year old man to grow up what has the world come to..

Hehe, you are right, but I don't take that personal.

Ofcourse, we should stay to the facts, even if it can get emotional.
And I fully understand that my arguments are maybe not so welcome for most people here, who have been working with and loving the Amiga for ages, and regard the system as one that was way ahead of it's time.

But still I think my arguments are valid - the Amiga was probably good and well designed, but not for all cases and all configurations.
And that is the topic of this thread after all.

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Yo needed a specialized disk with dir and list. and others did not care about that and wanted workbench,, it was for sure a specialized situation to keep YOUR needs.
the workbenchdisk was one to cover most needs. a generic system.

The most needed task was running an application.
And my 'specialised disk' was exactly for this task!

It is the main task of using a computer:
Looking what applications are on the storage medium, then selecting and loading one of them.

And my 'specialized disk' was needed to provide exactly that.
Workbench could perhaps do some more things, but how often were they needed?

It is still the same on your smartphone nowadays:
You see which app you have on your screen, then tap it to load it.

And the most important thing is that you get the possibility to do this task as fast as possible after the computer's start.

[Chucky]

for running applications you booted on the disk. it had a startup-sequence that started the program..

if not. most people would use workbench as then no need for commands.again.. your need was very specific. so you had to eaither use the supplied solution (wb with cli etc etc) or do a custom yourself.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

That is just splitting up the OS in 2 parts. Ofcourse the commands are part of the OS, otherwise you cannot use it.

I cannot use the Os without commands? Of course I can, actually most people used it without them. You can use the workbench perfectly fine without those commands. However, you wanted to "list" files from the shell without disk swapping, so here is the solution.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

What is an OS worth without any comands or without any UI?

That depends on what you expect. If you want a UI, there is the workbench, and the "copy" and "list" commands are not required for it to work, so just strike them from my list. The workbench shows the disk contents without them. If you want a shell, then you need shell commands.


Actually, the C64 didn't come with either. No UI, no shell. Just a BASIC programming language that wasn't even well adapted to the system.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

My original argument and comparisojn to the C64 was that not even basic commands were available at start, but had to be loaded from disk.

Because the average user wasn't expected to type any commands. The average user was expected to use the workbench and click on icons, or insert disks. There are no commands needed for it.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Then you contradicted that it was 'all in the Kickrom', which obviously is not the case.

The workbench is all in KickRom, I already told you. The shell as well. The commands - no. Nobody stops you from writing your own commands.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

My Amiga did not come with such a DOS disk, but with the slow loading red labeled Workbench disk, which loaded endlessly.

I don't know which version came with your system, but mine came with a 1.2 workbench which, indeed, loaded for too long just because CBM in their infinite wisdom forgot to fix self-booting harddisks in Kickstart 1.2 (that came with 1.3), and thus implemented a "harddisk wedge" on the workbench disk. The "endless loading" is a long sequence of "if exists...assign" commands that redirect the system directories to a potentially existing harddisk.



Yes, that was, indeed, something that was not done right. So in this respect, you are correct.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

And it is not what I expect from a ready to use system that I need to study some highly technical stuff how to tweak the startup-sequence, only to be able to have the OS (with commands ) ready within an acceptable time.

Again, wrong expectations. Commands are for the "pro", not for the average user. The workbench is for the average user. Actually, the CLI was even turned off on some machines by default, and you had to enable it with the preferences editor.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

And still, these 15 seconds are waaaay more time than I need to list a directory and start an application compared to the C64.

I don't need to turn on my machine every time I list directories. I only do that once, so that's actually not quite the same. I also don't erase my program on the Amiga every time I list a directory, as you do on the C64.

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Chucky

for running applications you booted on the disk. it had a startup-sequence that started the program..

But again, this involed that you had a separate disk for every single application you wanted to start!
And that was simly not affordable and a complete waste of diskspace, and money, after all....

Maybe this is the original problem of the Amiga, where all my issues start from?
Quite possible....

Originally Posted by Chucky

if not. most people would use workbench as then no need for commands.again.. your need was very specific. so you had to eaither use the supplied solution (wb with cli etc etc) or do a custom yourself.

I also would have loved to do it all from the Workbench, ofcourse, easily with the mouse and not needing the keyboard.
But I didn't want to wait for it to load so long every time I just wanted to start an application or do anything with files on a disk.

Hence my argument why it was not available in rom?
(no need to discuss it again - I understand it was a cost factor...and some 'well thought system design' of course )

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

One thing Apple did not get right from the beginning was...

One thing CP/M did not get right from the beginning was...

One thing the IBM PC did not get right from the beginning was...

The instant IBM announced the PC it became the 'gold standard' for what a desktop computer 'should' have. An RTC was not part of that 'standard' until the PC-AT. When the A1000 was born in 1985, ...

The AT set the standard in 1984

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Hence my argument why it was not available in rom?

Once again, the workbench *is* in ROM.


Would you please finally get that into your head.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

But again, this involed that you had a separate disk for every single application you wanted to start!

Nope.

And you know it. It was explained to you now multiple times.
Are you trying to be funny here? It’s not working …

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I cannot use the Os without commands? Of course I can, actually most people used it without them. You can use the workbench perfectly fine without those commands. However, you wanted to "list" files from the shell without disk swapping, so here is the solution.

That depends on what you expect. If you want a UI, there is the workbench, and the "copy" and "list" commands are not required for it to work, so just strike them from my list. The workbench shows the disk contents without them. If you want a shell, then you need shell commands.

Ok, then please tell me what the Workbench is in your opinion?
In my opinion, there are kind of 2 OS on the Amiga (maybe even 3, if we talk about the Kickrom, too?)
There is the Workbench, which I thought was THE Amiga OS? But then you told me it is not, it is the Kickstart?!
And there is Amigados, which in my world is something like another OS in parallel to the Workbench?

Maybe all a bit similar to early Windows versions like 3.1 or so, when there was DOS, but you could also do the same via Windows in parallel?

I think we should clarifiy this once and for all, otherwise we are talking in circles and of different things!

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Actually, the C64 didn't come with either. No UI, no shell. Just a BASIC programming language that wasn't even well adapted to the system.

We already had this....
And again, NO, you are wrong here.
The C64 had a command UI right from start of the computer, a blinking cursro, where you were able to enter commands, like for instance LOAD"$",8 , LIST, RUN, OPEN, PRINT#, etc, etc. Those were all OS commands, which were integrated in Basic, but have otherwise nothing to do with Basic. You will not use any of those in writing Basic programs.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Because the average user wasn't expected to type any commands. The average user was expected to use the workbench and click on icons, or insert disks. There are no commands needed for it.

But the average user was expected to start aplications or d osome file operations.
But Workbench was loading far too long for this very likely use case.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

The workbench is all in KickRom, I already told you. The shell as well. The commands - no. Nobody stops you from writing your own commands.

Yes, except that needed 'StartWB'

Please tell me how would a minimal Workbench disk look like, which let me do all the file operations you say are already integrated in Kickrom, like copying a file by drawing it to another folder, renaming a file, listing a folders content (let's assume all files have their annoying .info files with them), or simply double click to run one of them?
How long would it take to load?

I guess the startup-sequence you listed before boots me into a shell, correct?

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I don't know which version came with your system, but mine came with a 1.2 workbench which, indeed, loaded for too long just because CBM in their infinite wisdom forgot to fix self-booting harddisks in Kickstart 1.2 (that came with 1.3), and thus implemented a "harddisk wedge" on the workbench disk. The "endless loading" is a long sequence of "if exists...assign" commands that redirect the system directories to a potentially existing harddisk.

Mine was 1.3.2, I think?
And yes, this shows exactly that developers assumed you had a harddisk. (which in fact maybe one out of 20 users had?!)

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Yes, that was, indeed, something that was not done right. So in this respect, you are correct.

Oh, wow, I had not expected we would ever see something the same way

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Again, wrong expectations. Commands are for the "pro", not for the average user. The workbench is for the average user. Actually, the CLI was even turned off on some machines by default, and you had to enable it with the preferences editor.

Ok, see my text above, how would a minimal, user friendly, fast loading Workbench disk look like?!

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

I don't need to turn on my machine every time I list directories. I only do that once, so that's actually not quite the same. I also don't erase my program on the Amiga every time I list a directory, as you do on the C64.

Play an Amiga game, then afterwards look where your Workbench or Shell has gone?

This only changed in recent times with harddisks and WHDLoad games, where you actually can go back to the OS (but I think only on 68020 machines or something?!?)

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Once again, the workbench *is* in ROM.
Would you please finally get that into your head.

But NOT AVAILABLE at the start of the computer!!! Not available without some workbench/shell/dos whatever disk.

All that is greeting me when I turn on the Amiga is a nice kickstart hand. No UI, no cursor, no windows, no mouse pointer.
This is completely different to the C64 where I am ready to start an application from my work disk right after I turn on the computer, WITHOUT loading any such wb/shell/dos disk before.

Please get that in your head also, or show me how it works?!
How can I start one of let's say 10 applications from my floppy disk, directly from the kickstart hand?!

I think we are talking past each other on this?!

[Chucky]

Again: it was no C64. you wanted a new C64. most didn't..

people that handled the Amiga as a grown up C64 made the "incompabilityissues" etc.. people that never bothered to... learn!

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Nope.

And you know it. It was explained to you now multiple times.
Are you trying to be funny here? It’s not working …

The only explanation was to create a minimal dos/shell or workbench disk.
And ofcourse, it was NOT explained by you.

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Chucky

Again: it was no C64. you wanted a new C64. most didn't..

people that handled the Amiga as a grown up C64 made the "incompabilityissues" etc.. people that never bothered to... learn!

What are you referring to now in detail?
Games which were not compatible?

What is there to 'learn' if a game does not run because of Kickstart or memory expansion incompatibilities?
All I can learn from it is that I better get a memory expansion with a switch, or a kickstart switcher if I got an A-600....

Just giving up and taking it as 'given' and stop playing (your maybe favorite) game is not an option. All I would be 'learning' out of such a situation is being disappointed with the Amiga.

[deimos]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

But NOT AVAILABLE at the start of the computer!!! Not available without some workbench/shell/dos whatever disk.

To have the computer boot automatically to a minimal Workbench, to at least allow browsing disks and copying files between them, would have been a nice feature. This, to me, seems like something it didn't get right from day 1, particularly since Workbench was there, waiting, in ROM.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

This is completely different to the C64 where I am ready to start an application from my work disk right after I turn on the computer, WITHOUT loading any such wb/shell/dos disk before.

Yes, the Amiga is a different computer. Indeed. It was meant to be different to the C64. There is no lousy BASIC installed in ROM, quite right.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Please get that in your head also, or show me how it works?!
How can I start one of let's say 10 applications from my floppy disk, directly from the kickstart hand?!

With that, for example:


http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/NDos

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

What is there to 'learn' if a game does not run because of Kickstart or memory expansion incompatibilities?

The term "Please take it back and return my money, it doesn't work".

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Yes, the Amiga is a different computer. Indeed. It was meant to be different to the C64. There is no lousy BASIC installed in ROM, quite right.

Don't know why you are repeating the lousy basic over and over and over again, despite I never said anything that the Basic was good?
But I see you simply ignore the fact that there were commands available at the start, which the Amiga had not, and you cannot bring any other argument than ranting about the Basic....

And, yes, the Amiga was different, and also better in many ways, just not in ALL of them...

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

With that, for example:


http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/NDos

That certainly would have helped, yes!

But:
Did you look a the date? 1997 ?!?
I had my Amiga 500 in 1990....
In 1997, the Amiga was dead for most people, especially those many who were gamers (except some enthusiasts)

Also this had to be installed on every disk. (but ok, I could have lived with that, though)

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

The term "Please take it back and return my money, it doesn't work".

That wouldn't work when the game was released years earlier, before Amigas were equipped with an incompatible Kickstart 2.0.
The game was intended for a Kick 1.2 or 1.3 machine, back then.

Or do you think game developers would have had some magic glass sphere to look into the future, and see a Kickstart 2.0 coming, which would prevent their game from working any more, later?
How should they have expected that?!

[Overdoc]

Originally Posted by deimos

To have the computer boot automatically to a minimal Workbench, to at least allow browsing disks and copying files between them, would have been a nice feature. This, to me, seems like something it didn't get right from day 1, particularly since Workbench was there, waiting, in ROM.

EXACTLY!!!!
Thanks a lot!!
At least one person who understands this