All Psygnosis, all the time!

rhester72 · 17 March 2023, 19:45

This one's going to be necessarily long (but relates to my efforts to preserve the remaining outliers from Psygnosis).

The elephant in the room...Brataccus. Ignoring how completely awful a game it is, it _was_ Psygnosis' first and historically important (see Bandersnatch), so it's absolutely worth preservation. Trouble is, the NTSC version is well-preserved (and was distributed by Mindscape, no less)...but I've yet to even see a cracked release of a PAL version. Did one even exist, or was there not really a NTSC-specific version and the same code was sold everywhere? (It may, in fact, have been NTSC only - its release being one month after the introduction of PAL Amigas! On the other hand, the manual on HOL shows a UK address with no mention of Mindscape and the game was reviewed in March 1986 in a UK-based magazine, so...)

Then we have the Psyclapse games...and best as I can tell, all of them were PAL exclusives. Does anyone have any data to dispute that?

Nothing is inbound at the moment..

Missing NTSC releases (without even unofficial preservation dumps/IPFs) that have been confirmed to exist include:

AWESOME ($35 US loose)
Globdule HD installable (not sure if it actually existed in NTSC or otherwise, but mentioned in the manual)
Oh No! More Lemmings [stand-alone only]
Prime Mover ($30 US NIB)

Have one to dump? Let me know!

And finally...the list of games that I *think* were PAL only based on fairly extensive research but there's always a possibility someone will stand up and say "I have a NTSC version of that!", so I'm including these for completeness (along with commentary where applicable). Know of a NTSC version? Please speak up!

A special note about Shadow of the Beast...*really*? II and III had separate NTSC releases, but not the original? I _know_ this was sold in the US - I saw it, more than once!

(Believed to be) PAL-only releases:

All New World of Lemmings AGA
Armour-Geddon II: Codename Hellfire
Barbarian [believed to have been sold in the US, universal release?]
Barbarian II [believed to have been sold in the US, universal release?]
Benefactor
Blood Money [played a cracked version of this a lot in college...was it really never sold in NTSC form?]
Bob's Bad Day
Brian the Lion
Brian the Lion AGA
Chrono Quest
Chrono Quest II [likely universal release]
Cliffhanger [movie titles never made it to the US for some reason]
Combat Air Patrol [a NTSC-labeled box is known to exist, but the game itself is PAL!]
Dracula (Bram Stoker's)
Dungeon Master v3.x [v2.x was Amiga NTSC/US]
Globdule HD installable [not sure if it actually existed in PAL or otherwise, but mentioned in the manual]
Hired Guns [also played this a lot, but may have been an Aminet demo?]
Holiday Lemmings 1993
Holiday Lemmings 1994
Infestation
Innocent Until Caught
Last Action Hero [see earlier comment about movie games]
Obliterator
Perihelion: The Prophecy
Puggsy
Second Samurai
Second Samurai AGA
Shadow of the Beast [I refuse to believe this! The most popular game they made? 2 and 3 had NTSC releases...maybe NTSC and PAL auto-sensing?]
Terrorpods
Theatre of Death
Walker
Wiz 'n' Liz
X-It

Aardvark · 17 March 2023, 20:40

I have Combat Air Patrol "NTSC" release, but the disks are identical to PAL version, only difference is the sticker on the box and US registration card inside.

It even tries to force PAL mode if the Amiga can do it, so only way to play it in NTSC mode is with OCS machine.

desiv · 17 March 2023, 20:48

Unfortunately I won't be able to help here.
I went to check my e-bay purchased SOTB 1 and Blood Money, and both say they are the "Colour Version" of the game.
So I am guessing imports... I'd never really looked before...
I know back in the day, I bought SOTB as a non-import (came with the t-shirt, etc), and it wasn't PAL only.
But I don't have that anymore, so not sure if it was auto-switching or what...

Matt_H · 18 March 2023, 02:58

I have Bill's Tomato Game, Oh No More Lemmings, and possibly SotB II. Not sure how to do a preservation-quality dump, though. I have a Catweasel Mk4 on my AmigaOne and plenty of classic Amigas. Is it possible with what I've got?

I used the ancient Amiga-based CAPS dumping tools to get a raw image of Bill's Tomato Game a few years ago, but I don't know if it's "correct". I can put that in the Zone if it's of any use.

TCD · 18 March 2023, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

I have Combat Air Patrol "NTSC" release, but the disks are identical to PAL version, only difference is the sticker on the box and US registration card inside.

Could you upload the original version of that scan so we could include on HOL?

demoniac · 18 March 2023, 09:14

I have these original US releases that came from a friend:
Baal (bad track 0)
Chrono Quest (matches 1016)
Chrono Quest II (disk 1 & 4 might be modified)
Leander (not listed in your list, scores modified)
Obitus

They are dumped with either Kryoflux or CTRAW. I also have converted them to unofficial IPF a while back. Maybe the latest disk-analyse will clear the scores as I don't remember that feature when I converted them two years ago.

Aardvark · 18 March 2023, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

Combat Air Patrol [CONFIRMED as auto-switching - in this very thread! Thanks, Aardvark!]

Not sure you understood, the NTSC version tries to toggle to PAL mode even on NTSC Amiga, so only NTSC Amiga's with OCS chipset can play it in NTSC mode because OCS can't software toggle PAL/NTSC.

It's weird if this was sold in the US in this state, how many had PAL compatible display back then?

demoniac · 18 March 2023, 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

It's weird if this was sold in the US in this state, how many had PAL compatible display back then?

I believe all 1080, 1084, 1084s and 2002 handled both NTSC and PAL.

rhester72 · 18 March 2023, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_H

I have Bill's Tomato Game, Oh No More Lemmings, and possibly SotB II. Not sure how to do a preservation-quality dump, though. I have a Catweasel Mk4 on my AmigaOne and plenty of classic Amigas. Is it possible with what I've got?

I can't speak to that, but see below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_H

I used the ancient Amiga-based CAPS dumping tools to get a raw image of Bill's Tomato Game a few years ago, but I don't know if it's "correct". I can put that in the Zone if it's of any use.

Yes, please! These I can work with. Is it possible to use the CAPS tools for the others you have?

rhester72 · 18 March 2023, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

I have these original US releases that came from a friend:
Baal (bad track 0)
Chrono Quest (matches 1016)
Chrono Quest II (disk 1 & 4 might be modified)
Leander (not listed in your list, scores modified)
Obitus

These would be useful to see, especially Obitus.

For Baal and both Chrono Quests, how do you know they were US releases vs. imports? Do the diskettes and/or boxes clearly state NTSC?

Leander isn't on my list because it's already preserved by CAPS/SPS in both NTSC and PAL forms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

They are dumped with either Kryoflux or CTRAW. I also have converted them to unofficial IPF a while back. Maybe the latest disk-analyse will clear the scores as I don't remember that feature when I converted them two years ago.

It will not, but there are sometimes other means of doing so (like restoring the altered track from a PAL dump since the score track is usually identical). It'd be worth putting whatever you have in The Zone (particularly raw dumps, not already-converted IPFs) for further examination if you can.

rhester72 · 18 March 2023, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aardvark

Not sure you understood, the NTSC version tries to toggle to PAL mode even on NTSC Amiga, so only NTSC Amiga's with OCS chipset can play it in NTSC mode because OCS can't software toggle PAL/NTSC.

It's weird if this was sold in the US in this state, how many had PAL compatible display back then?

Huh...I did not fully understand that. Given the 1993 release date, OCS Amigas were actually becoming somewhat rare at that point. Maybe it was a packing error (or labeling error)? That's rather strange. I've corrected my correction. =)

Two other quick things about this one:

- How do you know it tries to toggle to PAL mode on ECS+?
- Are the disks themselves labeled NTSC? Scans would be nice if possible! =)

Aardvark · 18 March 2023, 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

- How do you know it tries to toggle to PAL mode on ECS+?

Experiments on various WinUAE configs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

- Are the disks themselves labeled NTSC? Scans would be nice if possible! =

There is no NTSC or PAL label on the disks, they are same as the scans on HoL.

Matt_H · 18 March 2023, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

Yes, please! These I can work with. Is it possible to use the CAPS tools for the others you have?

Just uploaded the raw Bill's Tomato Game to the Zone. I *think* it's an 83-track image. There's also a RawDIC image on the FTP that I made so that jotd could add WHDLoad support.

I'll try to get CAPS images of the others. Please pester me via PM if I forget to get back to you.

demoniac · 18 March 2023, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

For Baal and both Chrono Quests, how do you know they were US releases vs. imports? Do the diskettes and/or boxes clearly state NTSC?

Baal disk doesn't. Chrono Quest disks are not easily accessible. I don't think I was given boxes for them, but just the manuals. More likely they were not imports and were worldwide releases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

It will not, but there are sometimes other means of doing so (like restoring the altered track from a PAL dump since the score track is usually identical)

Are you certain? Unless I'm conflating with the official SPS encoder tool, which has this feature, disk-analyse shows the following message for Turrican's modified high score track:

Code:

disk-analyse --format="Turrican" Turrican\track turrican.ipf
*** T13.1: Factor 5 High Score: No saved high-score data found. Creating empty track.

(FYI, dlfrsilver informed me that the SPS tool indicated that the high score track was modified. In addition, I haven't located the line in disk-analyse's code regarding this warning message to see exactly what it is doing.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhester72

It'd be worth putting whatever you have in The Zone (particularly raw dumps, not already-converted IPFs) for further examination if you can.

Would people want both the raw dumps with the best unofficial IPFs (either semi-official from SPS encoder, but not approved by the SPS officiator, or from disk-analyse) in a single archive?

Also, is the Zone the best place? I ask as there's Turran's FTP has /Flux_Images/Incoming/ . The subdirectories are separated by different formats, which would separate my dumps if people wanted both raw and IPF.

I had been meaning to compare my disk dumps' track CRCs with the official SPS releases, but I hadn't had time to do this. This would prove if Baal or Chrono Quest II are identical to the SPS releases.

TCD · 18 March 2023, 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

Also, is the Zone the best place? I ask as there's Turran's FTP has /Flux_Images/Incoming/ . The subdirectories are separated by different formats, which would separate my dumps if people wanted both raw and IPF.

It would be great to have both separately. The raw dump would go in the folder you mentioned and the IPF in 'Non TOSEC IPFs - Unofficial'. Upload them whereever it is easier for you

demoniac · 18 March 2023, 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCD

It would be great to have both separately. The raw dump would go in the folder you mentioned and the IPF in 'Non TOSEC IPFs - Unofficial'. Upload them whereever it is easier for you

Let's take Baal for example, Track 0 is known to be bad. We may be able to determine that the disk is identical to SPS release. We could also replace the bad Track 0 with another version to generate working IPF. I guess wherever I upload the files to; they will be drafts until we finalize them into working sets.

dlfrsilver · 18 March 2023, 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoniac

Baal disk doesn't. Chrono Quest disks are not easily accessible. I don't think I was given boxes for them, but just the manuals. More likely they were not imports and were worldwide releases.

Are you certain? Unless I'm conflating with the official SPS encoder tool, which has this feature, disk-analyse shows the following message for Turrican's modified high score track:

Code:

disk-analyse --format="Turrican" Turrican\track turrican.ipf
*** T13.1: Factor 5 High Score: No saved high-score data found. Creating empty track.

(FYI, dlfrsilver informed me that the SPS tool indicated that the high score track was modified. In addition, I haven't located the line in disk-analyse's code regarding this warning message to see exactly what it is doing.)

Would people want both the raw dumps with the best unofficial IPFs (either semi-official from SPS encoder, but not approved by the SPS officiator, or from disk-analyse) in a single archive?

Also, is the Zone the best place? I ask as there's Turran's FTP has /Flux_Images/Incoming/ . The subdirectories are separated by different formats, which would separate my dumps if people wanted both raw and IPF.

I had been meaning to compare my disk dumps' track CRCs with the official SPS releases, but I hadn't had time to do this. This would prove if Baal or Chrono Quest II are identical to the SPS releases.

The SPS encoder tool has the ability to rejuvenate the highscore for Turrican, even if the Score track is modified. This allows the user to write back the IPF highscore track to disk

rhester72 · 19 March 2023, 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt_H

Just uploaded the raw Bill's Tomato Game to the Zone. I *think* it's an 83-track image. There's also a RawDIC image on the FTP that I made so that jotd could add WHDLoad support.

Strangely, I can't get disk-analyse to do anything actually useful with the CAPS image, which means I just don't know what I'm doing, because the dump itself loads fine in WinUAE. Thank you for this!

rhester72 · 19 March 2023, 01:02

A bit surprised by Carl Lewis Challenge.

Per this interview:

https://codetapper.com/amiga/interviews/rob-northen/

it should be amigados_copylock (probably), but probe_amiga says amigados, and that actually seems to work.

I'll play a bit more and send up the raw KF dumps to The Zone so people can get a good look, but definitely surprised by this. (It's not covered in formats at all.)

-----

EDIT: Mystery solved - disk 1 is amigados, disk 2 is amigados_copylock. Still odd, I'm always used to the protection being on the first disk at least!

EDIT2: amigados_copylock confirmed as correct. The copy protection is fun on this one - without it, the game will load and play, but your runner is invisible!

EDIT3: Zoned!

rhester72 · 19 March 2023, 01:04

Speaking of...is there any way to use disk_analyse to 'reverse engineer' an existing IPF to see what track definitions were used on an official IPF?

17 March 2023, 19:45	#1
rhester72 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New York / USA Posts: 360	All Psygnosis, all the time! This one's going to be necessarily long (but relates to my efforts to preserve the remaining outliers from Psygnosis). The elephant in the room...Brataccus. Ignoring how completely awful a game it is, it _was_ Psygnosis' first and historically important (see Bandersnatch), so it's absolutely worth preservation. Trouble is, the NTSC version is well-preserved (and was distributed by Mindscape, no less)...but I've yet to even see a cracked release of a PAL version. Did one even exist, or was there not really a NTSC-specific version and the same code was sold everywhere? (It may, in fact, have been NTSC only - its release being one month after the introduction of PAL Amigas! On the other hand, the manual on HOL shows a UK address with no mention of Mindscape and the game was reviewed in March 1986 in a UK-based magazine, so...) Then we have the Psyclapse games...and best as I can tell, all of them were PAL exclusives. Does anyone have any data to dispute that? Nothing is inbound at the moment.. Missing NTSC releases (without even unofficial preservation dumps/IPFs) that have been confirmed to exist include: AWESOME ($35 US loose) Globdule HD installable (not sure if it actually existed in NTSC or otherwise, but mentioned in the manual) Oh No! More Lemmings [stand-alone only] Prime Mover ($30 US NIB) Have one to dump? Let me know! And finally...the list of games that I think were PAL only based on fairly extensive research but there's always a possibility someone will stand up and say "I have a NTSC version of that!", so I'm including these for completeness (along with commentary where applicable). Know of a NTSC version? Please speak up! A special note about Shadow of the Beast...really? II and III had separate NTSC releases, but not the original? I _know_ this was sold in the US - I saw it, more than once! (Believed to be) PAL-only releases: All New World of Lemmings AGA Armour-Geddon II: Codename Hellfire Barbarian [believed to have been sold in the US, universal release?] Barbarian II [believed to have been sold in the US, universal release?] Benefactor Blood Money [played a cracked version of this a lot in college...was it really never sold in NTSC form?] Bob's Bad Day Brian the Lion Brian the Lion AGA Chrono Quest Chrono Quest II [likely universal release] Cliffhanger [movie titles never made it to the US for some reason] Combat Air Patrol [a NTSC-labeled box is known to exist, but the game itself is PAL!] Dracula (Bram Stoker's) Dungeon Master v3.x [v2.x was Amiga NTSC/US] Globdule HD installable [not sure if it actually existed in PAL or otherwise, but mentioned in the manual] Hired Guns [also played this a lot, but may have been an Aminet demo?] Holiday Lemmings 1993 Holiday Lemmings 1994 Infestation Innocent Until Caught Last Action Hero [see earlier comment about movie games] Obliterator Perihelion: The Prophecy Puggsy Second Samurai Second Samurai AGA Shadow of the Beast [I refuse to believe this! The most popular game they made? 2 and 3 had NTSC releases...maybe NTSC and PAL auto-sensing?] Terrorpods Theatre of Death Walker Wiz 'n' Liz X-It Last edited by rhester72; 18 April 2023 at 17:31.

19 March 2023, 01:02	#19
rhester72 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New York / USA Posts: 360	A bit surprised by Carl Lewis Challenge. Per this interview: https://codetapper.com/amiga/interviews/rob-northen/ it should be amigados_copylock (probably), but probe_amiga says amigados, and that actually seems to work. I'll play a bit more and send up the raw KF dumps to The Zone so people can get a good look, but definitely surprised by this. (It's not covered in formats at all.) ----- EDIT: Mystery solved - disk 1 is amigados, disk 2 is amigados_copylock. Still odd, I'm always used to the protection being on the first disk at least! EDIT2: amigados_copylock confirmed as correct. The copy protection is fun on this one - without it, the game will load and play, but your runner is invisible! EDIT3: Zoned! Last edited by rhester72; 19 March 2023 at 02:45.

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17 March 2023, 20:40	#2
Aardvark Registered User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Finland Posts: 634	I have Combat Air Patrol "NTSC" release, but the disks are identical to PAL version, only difference is the sticker on the box and US registration card inside. It even tries to force PAL mode if the Amiga can do it, so only way to play it in NTSC mode is with OCS machine.

17 March 2023, 20:48	#3
desiv Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Salem, OR Posts: 1,767	Unfortunately I won't be able to help here. I went to check my e-bay purchased SOTB 1 and Blood Money, and both say they are the "Colour Version" of the game. So I am guessing imports... I'd never really looked before... I know back in the day, I bought SOTB as a non-import (came with the t-shirt, etc), and it wasn't PAL only. But I don't have that anymore, so not sure if it was auto-switching or what...

18 March 2023, 02:58	#4
Matt_H Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 943	I have Bill's Tomato Game, Oh No More Lemmings, and possibly SotB II. Not sure how to do a preservation-quality dump, though. I have a Catweasel Mk4 on my AmigaOne and plenty of classic Amigas. Is it possible with what I've got? I used the ancient Amiga-based CAPS dumping tools to get a raw image of Bill's Tomato Game a few years ago, but I don't know if it's "correct". I can put that in the Zone if it's of any use.

18 March 2023, 09:14	#6
demoniac Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: - Posts: 1,687	I have these original US releases that came from a friend: Baal (bad track 0) Chrono Quest (matches 1016) Chrono Quest II (disk 1 & 4 might be modified) Leander (not listed in your list, scores modified) Obitus They are dumped with either Kryoflux or CTRAW. I also have converted them to unofficial IPF a while back. Maybe the latest disk-analyse will clear the scores as I don't remember that feature when I converted them two years ago.

19 March 2023, 01:04	#20
rhester72 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New York / USA Posts: 360	Speaking of...is there any way to use disk_analyse to 'reverse engineer' an existing IPF to see what track definitions were used on an official IPF?

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