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Old 21 October 2021, 17:40   #381
drHirudo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
I think the whole discussion is going in circles....
Nearly everyone is forgetting about USEABILITY!
!
I knew many gamers back in the times who held their Amigas under the desk and almost never touched the keyboard.
Why?
Because they didn't needed it. Their Amigas acted like gaming consoles. Just insert the disk of the proffered game and press fire to start (occasionally needing the second joystick button or mouse button because of some special cool intro..)

Try using the C64 without keyboard (hint, hint.. it's useless, I have such C64 machine at home).


Recently, I created many videos for retro platforms (known and unknown) and most of the 16-bit (and even some 8-bit) machines from the early to mid 1980-ies didn't act any different than the Amiga). They are useless without loading a disk and this is for a reason. These 16-bit machines are complex, so there is not much use of them without some input/output device.

Having the Operating System in the ROM actually made the Amigas much faster booting than even the much more primitive MS-DOS or PC-DOS.

For the record - the Apple II machines also needed to boot from disk at the beginning and you need to press reset to enter the BASIC prompt or type some command to enter the monitor. Later Apple II machines even had Mini-Assembler in the ROM that can be used by advanced users, but still the floppy drive and booting from disk was 99% of the time for these computers, since you need to save your work or load special application, which is not available in the ROM.
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Old 21 October 2021, 20:14   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
I think the whole discussion is going in circles....
Nearly everyone is forgetting about USEABILITY!
Exactly. Wha's easier? Turn the system on and insert a disk, or turn the system on, insert a disk, and type in some cryptic command to start your application?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post

Also without Dolphindos, I can type LOAD"$",8:LIST to list a disk's content in 3 seconds at any time..a time which on the Amiga 500 it takes alone to do that mandatory annoying disk-swap from the a minimal boot disk to my work disk.
But you still need to type something. And something crytpic, and something you need to learn when you want to use the system for the first time.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post

Ofcourse I can understand the cost factor, but adding an additional 16KB or 32KB ROM which would just include something like a 'Z-Shell' or 'Mini-Workbench' would not have cost thaaat much, but would have made it simply more useable.
Once again, the workbench *is* (or was, back then) in ROM, and the shell *is* in ROM. Why is this so hard to understand? The *shell commands* are not in ROM, and that's right so, because you wouldn't be able to replace or enhance the shell.


But you still don't understand the main point: It is *more* usable this way, not less usable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post

My guess is that developers saw it completely as a harddisk based system, which they themselves probably had all the time?
That is only partially true. Again, you don't quite understand the "development" of the system. There was no "developers that discussed together". AmigaOs is a kludge. It consists of a well-defined core system, with a kludgy graphics package on top that was designed for the primary goal of the machine as games console because that was how the hardware was designed. No harddisk here, nobody had this in mind for a games console.


Then, CBM run out of time, and bought, as DOS, a research operating system for "mini"-computers, from Cambridge. That was Tripos. And as Tripos was considered to operate on "real" systems, it brought services that, per se, included harddisk support. Mount-lists, disk-handlers, stuff like that.


And then CBM put on top of the Tripos layer a graphical user interface, the workbench, which is again separate from Tripos, and this is were LoadWB comes into play.


Then CBM came up with a boot strategy where you could use all the "games core system" without the "Tripos layer", and this is where the disk boot block comes into play.



There is no "consistent design" of the thing, and while one part of the design was targetting as games console application, the other part was for "mini"-computers (mini because they weren't main-frames, but still bulky professional systems not for personal use).

AmigaOs is not "one Os". Its is "three Osses". exec/graphics core, Tripos/dos.library, and workbench.library.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
But in terms of being 'simple and ready to use', the C64 is superior, even superior to a modern PC. You turn it on and it is ready, you don't need to wait for a boot disk or OS to load, you don't need to install anything, no drivers, etc.
Quite the reverse. You don't need a shitty Basic on Amiga to load your game or application. You just turn the thing on and insert the disk. Done.


How much easier can it be?


Put a today's child upfront an Amiga, or upfront a C64. Where, do you think, will the child be able to load a game first? On Amiga, or on C64, where you first have to read a manual before you can actually can do anything useful.
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Old 22 October 2021, 00:22   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Exactly. Wha's easier? Turn the system on and insert a disk, or turn the system on, insert a disk, and type in some cryptic command to start your application?
No, I am not talking about playing a game or running an application.
For games, it is like drHirudo pointed out -> Amiga acts like a game console. For this, it is all ok, simple, just insert the disk and it loads the game/applicaton. Also no need for a OS with UI, in such case, right?

But hey, I thought the Amiga was more than a console, but a computer instead? Why did it have a keyboard, then?!

So, I am talking about using the Amiga as a computer, with it's OS and UI. Let's say I just simply want to know what files are stored on a disk:

On the Amiga it is like this:
- turn the thing on
- insert a disk which can boot into workbench or shell, and makes the LIST command resident
- wait for the disk to boot (at least 8 seconds was told here, but I guess 20 seconds with loading the LIST command? In case of Commodore's original Workbench, it is ~1 minute?)
- eject the boot disk, and insert the disk you want to list it's contents
- type LIST DF0:

On the C64:
- turn the thing on
- insert the disk you want to list it's contents
- type LOAD"$",8 and then LIST


Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
But you still need to type something. And something crytpic, and something you need to learn when you want to use the system for the first time.
Yeah, but I learn the command ONE time. then I can type it from my head and use it.
On the Amiga, I need to insert that boot disk instead EVERY time before I can do anything on my work disk.

And I also need to learn the Amigados LIST command. And I also need to learn how to use the Workbench GUI if I have never seen a GUI before.
(there is a reason why the Amiga came with a thick manual - it is by far not self-explaining)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Once again, the workbench *is* (or was, back then) in ROM, and the shell *is* in ROM. Why is this so hard to understand?
Like I pointed out a thousand times:
I understand they are in ROM, but they cannot be used after starting the computer. Is that so hard to understand?
A kid can understand that you cannot enter a command while all you see is that stupid kickstart hand, without a cursor and whithout a mouse pointer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
The *shell commands* are not in ROM, and that's right so, because you wouldn't be able to replace or enhance the shell.
Not at all!
Even if all of them were in ROM, I could load an application which enhances them.
Just an example: on the C64, there was Simon's Basic, which enhanced it's basic. It loaded additional commands into ram, so you had the original ones from the ROM as well as the additional ones. (and yes, it sucked the same way, because you always had to load it before you could load an applicatin written in Simon's Basic)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
But you still don't understand the main point: It is *more* usable this way, not less usable.
That depends what you understand as 'more useable'.
From a 'ready to go' point of view, it is less useble this way.
From a point of flexibility, it may be more useable.

But, see above:
I have still not seen a reason other than the cost factor of an extra ROM, why having some basci commands ready in ROM would make the system less flexible, or prevent the concept of being able to load additional commands from floppy?
Having some commands immediateöy available in ROM would be exactly the same as if you had loaded and made them resident freom disk before. Only that you wouldn't have to wait for that damn disk to load.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
That is only partially true. Again, you don't quite understand the "development" of the system. There was no "developers that discussed together". AmigaOs is a kludge. It consists of a well-defined core system, with a kludgy graphics package on top that was designed for the primary goal of the machine as games console because that was how the hardware was designed. No harddisk here, nobody had this in mind for a games console.


Then, CBM run out of time, and bought, as DOS, a research operating system for "mini"-computers, from Cambridge. That was Tripos. And as Tripos was considered to operate on "real" systems, it brought services that, per se, included harddisk support. Mount-lists, disk-handlers, stuff like that.

And then CBM put on top of the Tripos layer a graphical user interface, the workbench, which is again separate from Tripos, and this is were LoadWB comes into play.

Then CBM came up with a boot strategy where you could use all the "games core system" without the "Tripos layer", and this is where the disk boot block comes into play.

There is no "consistent design" of the thing, and while one part of the design was targetting as games console application, the other part was for "mini"-computers (mini because they weren't main-frames, but still bulky professional systems not for personal use).

AmigaOs is not "one Os". Its is "three Osses". exec/graphics core, Tripos/dos.library, and workbench.library.
This is very interesting to read for a historian, or a technician (and yes, also interesting infos for myself )
But: this is something completely irrelevant for a standard user!
The user is just trying to work with the system, simply using it. He does not mind how or why it was developed this or that way, and it is no excuse for him when he is getting into some annoying issus when using it.

You are seeing only the developer's technical view, but you are missing the user's view.
Maybe it helps if you learn the difference between verification and validation?
The Amiga 500 system would have perfectly passed a verification test, but would not have passed a user validation test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Richter View Post
Quite the reverse. You don't need a shitty Basic on Amiga to load your game or application. You just turn the thing on and insert the disk. Done.

How much easier can it be?

Put a today's child upfront an Amiga, or upfront a C64. Where, do you think, will the child be able to load a game first? On Amiga, or on C64, where you first have to read a manual before you can actually can do anything useful.
Only if it wants to play a game!
But like explained above, I think the Amiga is more than a games console, and I was talking about using the Amiga's OS from the start.

It will be faster listing a disk directory on a C64 than on an Amiga if it has learned the command, once.
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Old 22 October 2021, 08:35   #384
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<long text of ranting not worth quoting>

When I bought my 500 i was never interested of any gaming. for me it was a easy to use, it was no "20 seconds" or so to load the list command. I had my custom boot disk for whatever I wanted to do at that moment. and with dualfloppy it was even more easy. (until I got my harddrive)

I cannot get your complaints at all.. insert a disk and be happy instead of writing a cryptic command..

load"$",8 and then list is extremly cryptic and actually totally unlogic.
the only time I was "annoyed" of dir or list not being in rom is when I had a HD crash and needed to fiddle with disks again.. but in the disk-days. no.

as told. this discussion is stupid. apparently you preffered Ataris crappy GEM instead of AmigaOS. so why even bother with Amiga then?
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Old 22 October 2021, 12:39   #385
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Atari GEM was not crappy. It was the best that could be done when everything is in ROM. Amiga had a better OS, well WB1.x was really ugly but still very-very capable OS. And it was so, apart from the whole Amiga architecture, because it was on disk and could be improved further.
The equivalent of KS\WB in terms of features were the desktop replacement apps, but these were expensive commercial apps.

I had Ataris and Amiga back in the days before I sell both (and reacquire them few years ago). I wish TOS/GEM on my Ataris were capable as the KS/WB was. The simplicity of TOS/GEM was amazing and made things easy but was just that. Amiga was harder to understand but was an ocean of features and possibilities within 512k and a disk (ok, more than one disk). Never had a problem with disk juggling.

In my mind the thing that Amiga did wrong from day 1 was that its custom chipset was not an add-on card, an expansion so to speak, with an API and standard commands for the various interfaces it provided, that any 3rd party or even Commodore could update without having to think about compatibility. But this was hard back in the days.

Last edited by AmiBoy; 22 October 2021 at 13:50.
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Old 22 October 2021, 14:29   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
When I bought my 500 i was never interested of any gaming. for me it was a easy to use, it was no "20 seconds" or so to load the list command. I had my custom boot disk for whatever I wanted to do at that moment. and with dualfloppy it was even more easy. (until I got my harddrive)
I mentioned I also had to make such a custom boot disk to make the issue at least a bit easier. (but maybe mine was not very optimized, since Commodore did not provide one, but a crappy overloaded Workbench disk instead....)

And, yes, correct, with a second diskdrive or harddisk, things are completely different. I wrote this multiple times, so please just read my text.

But the Amiga 500 did not come with a second drive or harddisk by default. These were expensive extras!
You HAD to get one of them first, otherwise doing something else other than using your Amiga 500 as a games console is a pain in the ass.
This is all what I mentioned about this thread's topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucky View Post
I cannot get your complaints at all.. insert a disk and be happy instead of writing a cryptic command..

load"$",8 and then list is extremly cryptic and actually totally unlogic.
the only time I was "annoyed" of dir or list not being in rom is when I had a HD crash and needed to fiddle with disks again.. but in the disk-days. no.

as told. this discussion is stupid. apparently you preffered Ataris crappy GEM instead of AmigaOS. so why even bother with Amiga then?
You understood wrong, I never had an Atari, and I loved the Amiga and still love it today even more than I did back then (with CF card harddisks, Gotek drives, cheap expansion cards, etc.)

I just mentioned the Atari's TOS because I know it was in ROM and not booted from disk (at least on later models?!)
But I never worked with it, and someone has already corrected me and told me that despite it was in ROM and available after start, you couldn't do much with it.
Ok, so it was a bad example, maybe. I just wanted to explain what I mean by having the OS READY including UI at the start of the computer.

Don't get me wrong, I am definitely an Amiga fan and I have several of them in use and many others in my collection, and regarding Amiga I have been happily repairing mostly A-500s and diskdrives quite sucessfully for the last 20 years.

BUT:
I am not saying everything is perfect on the machine just because it is an Amiga! Same is also true for the C64, it also had it's annoying design fails.

But I don't understand the problem of entering a cryptic command? Once I know the syntax, it is absolutelöy easy, and WAY faster than having to wait for a boot disk loading the most needed commands into RAM.

Maybe it is like different people have different likes, so for one it maybe be easier to type a cryptic command, while another ones likes to wait for a boot disk to load?
Still, I wouldn't call it a stupid discussion.

I am the one who better and faster types the command.
I also still use command line in Windows for some tasks, and I am way faster than if I would do it at GUI level.
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Old 22 October 2021, 14:35   #387
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I solved it by making a template disk. format a floppy create the C folder put in dir and list (and copy and type?? can't remember) and made it bootable. a very small disk containing the most absolutly needed commands and plenty of space left. booted quick and problem solved. then if I had extra demands I populated that disk for that purpose.. simple.

you say extra floppy was hardware but still some steps above had no issue with dolphindos on C64 that was extra hardware that ALSO reuired a device as expensive as the machine it runs on? weird.

commandline today? ofcourse who doesn't?
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Old 22 October 2021, 15:05   #388
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That's very similar to what I did as well.
I made a disk that loaded LIST (I didn't even bother about DIR), COPY, CD, ED and RESIDENT and maybe one or two other commands resident into RAM.
Still the disk took some time to boot.

And your are very correct, it is not fair to compare a C64 with Dolphindos hardware to a stock A-500. I just mentioned that I was used to Dolphindos, and so the Amiga OS useage was a step back for me. On Dolphin, you don't need to type LOAD, LIST or RUN, you just press a function key Also disk commands are simply typing '@' followed by a one digit command

But still when I compare to standard C64 where I need to type the full 'cryptic' commands, then for me it is still faster and more convenient than having to wait for the boot disk and then swap it for the work disk.

I also think it was not so much the boot time, but the disk-swapping which was the most annoying part.
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Old 22 October 2021, 15:06   #389
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as I never use floppys now and doesn't even HAVE one I cannot compare the loadtime. but it was not long that is for sure..
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Old 22 October 2021, 15:13   #390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
On the C64:
- turn the thing on
- insert the disk you want to list it's contents
- type LOAD"$",8 and then LIST
On Amiga 500 I did:
- Insert disk that contains and load DirectoryOpus (or any other file manager)
- Remove the disk and insert the one of interest
- The disk content is automatically listed (if not click the DF0 button)

As you can see much easier then on C64 and you don't need to type something.

Quote:
On the Amiga, I need to insert that boot disk instead EVERY time before I can do anything on my work disk.
Back in the days software comes from floppy disks. What is the problem with insert a disk?! If you want to avoid swapping disk, just connect a second (or up to four) drives. Problem solved from day one if you would like.

Quote:
And I also need to learn the Amigados LIST command. And I also need to learn how to use the Workbench GUI if I have never seen a GUI before.
(there is a reason why the Amiga came with a thick manual - it is by far not self-explaining)
The example above shows you that there is no need to use/learn commands on the command line or the WB GUI. On Amiga 500 I nearly never needed/used that.
The Amiga DOS manual wasn't/isn't thick. The Windows DOS manual is twice as thick. But who cares about because it doesn't say something about the quality or usability of the system. You could use Amiga without reading the manuals because it was/is so easy to use. In your case you should have read the manuals.

Quote:
Like I pointed out a thousand times:
I understand they are in ROM, but they cannot be used after starting the computer. Is that so hard to understand?
This just proofs that you didn't (or want to) understand it. Learn how the system works, how to use it and then come back.

Quote:
The user is just trying to work with the system, simply using it. He does not mind how or why it was developed this or that way, and it is no excuse for him when he is getting into some annoying issus when using it.
The problem is that you didn't like the way the system is working and/or how to use it that it plays it's strength. Nevertheless it seems you used it instead of using a C64 or any other computer that behaves like one.

Quote:
Only if it wants to play a game!
But like explained above, I think the Amiga is more than a games console, and I was talking about using the Amiga's OS from the start.
I doesn't make a difference if the software is a game on a disk or a program/tool on a disk.
Quote:
It will be faster listing a disk directory on a C64 than on an Amiga if it has learned the command, once.
You could have added an AmigaActionReplay to your A500 that makes it much more powerful and much better then a C64. Press the Freeze key, type "dir (path)" and show the list. I guess this is faster then on C64.
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Old 22 October 2021, 15:53   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
On Amiga 500 I did:
- Insert disk that contains and load DirectoryOpus (or any other file manager)
- Remove the disk and insert the one of interest
- The disk content is automatically listed (if not click the DF0 button)

As you can see much easier then on C64 and you don't need to type something.
But more hassle with that needed disk-swapping and waiting for DirectoryOpus to load for probably 30 seconds.

The C64 wins this task definitely 1:0.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
Back in the days software comes from floppy disks. What is the problem with insert a disk?! If you want to avoid swapping disk, just connect a second (or up to four) drives. Problem solved from day one if you would like.
Please read again, then come back.
Having to buy expensive extra hardware is not an excuse or accepted solution for a bad designed system.
A good designed system works fine out of the box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
The example above shows you that there is no need to use/learn commands on the command line or the WB GUI. On Amiga 500 I nearly never needed/used that.
Then show me how you do it without that annoying time to wait for the workbench or other boot disk to load, and the need to swap for the disk of interest?
Booting a minimal Shell disk seems the best we can get, but is still inferior to the C64's ready to go comands in ROM one second after I switch it on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
The Amiga DOS manual wasn't/isn't thick. The Windows DOS manual is twice as thick. But who cares about because it doesn't say something about the quality or usability of the system. You could use Amiga without reading the manuals because it was/is so easy to use. In your case you should have read the manuals.

This just proofs that you didn't (or want to) understand it. Learn how the system works, how to use it and then come back.

The problem is that you didn't like the way the system is working and/or how to use it that it plays it's strength. Nevertheless it seems you used it instead of using a C64 or any other computer that behaves like one.
I am sure the system is mighty and flexible, and good for expert users.
But without extra HD it is not suitable for doing basic OS tasks without any hassle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
I doesn't make a difference if the software is a game on a disk or a program/tool on a disk.
Again for someone like you who cannot/doesn't/doesn't want to read :
I am not talking about loading games/applications!!!

I am talking about using the Amiga's OS !! Which is obviously available in kickstart ROM, but still needs a system/boot disk until you can really use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by daxb View Post
You could have added an AmigaActionReplay to your A500 that makes it much more powerful and much better then a C64. Press the Freeze key, type "dir (path)" and show the list. I guess this is faster then on C64.
Yeah, I had the Action Reply later, and it was very handy.

But it is sad that the original Amiga 500 system was not able to provide a needed command line or GUI, but only displayed a stupid kickstart hand after I switch it on.
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Old 22 October 2021, 16:02   #392
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Quote:
Having to buy expensive extra hardware is not an excuse or accepted solution for a bad designed system.
With that logic: I need to have a license to fly a plane? that is a bad designed system...

no. it is you not understanding it. it have nothing to do with "bad design"
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Old 22 October 2021, 16:17   #393
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???
Sorry, but I don't understand this comparison?!

Flying a plane is not a thing everyone can do, only an expert can and should.
But a computer should be ready to be used by everyone. And in the Amiga's case, even the expert needs to wait for his boot disk to load and swap disks if he has not additionally invested in a HD or second drive.

The comparioson is is more like you buy a car, but it is missing the start key. You have to buy the start key extra, only then you can use the car, and it always takes half a minute until the engine starts.
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Old 22 October 2021, 16:31   #394
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Perhaps what was really missing was a drive cache. Load the DIR program once, keep it in RAM after it terminated in case it will be used again soon. Reassign memory to something else if it is needed by or for another program. I'm not sure whether this would have been feasible at this time. RESIDENT somehow seems some sort of a static drive cache but could have been complemented by an automated process.
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Old 22 October 2021, 16:41   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
But the Amiga 500 did not come with a second drive or harddisk by default. These were expensive extras!
You HAD to get one of them first, otherwise doing something else other than using your Amiga 500 as a games console is a pain in the ass.
And here you are totally wrong. Of course you could have bought an Amiga 500 with a second disk drive (by default). Was it your problem that the second disk drive wasn't build in (the case)? You were surprised that it was an external device connected to the disk drive slot? A2000 was the choice if you need build in drives. Of course the system comes more expensive if you add stuff to it. Do you wanted it as a gift?! However, also without the extras A500 was easy to use except you didn't knew how to use it and wanted it to behave it in a different way (you was used to).

Quote:
I just wanted to explain what I mean by having the OS READY including UI at the start of the computer.
You still didn't have understood it.

Quote:
I am not saying everything is perfect on the machine just because it is an Amiga!
The Amiga or any other computer until today is not perfect. That will never be the case and nobody said that.

Quote:
Still, I wouldn't call it a stupid discussion.
Would you notice that you behave like a stupid instead? I don't want to say that you are stupid! Maybe a lack of knowledge or just immune to advice?
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Old 22 October 2021, 17:10   #396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdoc View Post
But more hassle with that needed disk-swapping and waiting for DirectoryOpus to load for probably 30 seconds.
No. Why you cannot understand it. Do you have a healthy problem or somethnig else we should know of? If so please get some help. If DOpus is to slow for you use a filemanager that takes less seconds. DOpus was just an example and maybe the slowest loading example.

Quote:
Having to buy expensive extra hardware is not an excuse or accepted solution for a bad designed system.
A good designed system works fine out of the box.
You are free to buy extra hardware or not. That is not an excuse or bad design. Several users would say it is a good design. You don't like it as we know but because you don't like something it doesn't make it a bad design.

Quote:
Then show me how you do it without that annoying time to wait for the workbench or other boot disk to load, and the need to swap for the disk of interest?
Ehmm... I already wrote it. Please read and understand.

Quote:
I am talking about using the Amiga's OS !! Which is obviously available in kickstart ROM, but still needs a system/boot disk until you can really use it.
Once again. Do you think you are using the OS? You don't. You use programs that use the OS that is in the ROM. Programs are usually saved on floppy or hard disk. Of course there are programs that switch off the system and bang the hardware instead of using the OS functions. Just to mention it.

Quote:
But it is sad that the original Amiga 500 system was not able to provide a needed command line or GUI, but only displayed a stupid kickstart hand after I switch it on.
What seems to be only a problem for you. I.e. how to use the system.
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Old 22 October 2021, 17:15   #397
gimbal
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At some point you just have to stop making multicomment posts... but you are doubling up even. It just isn't this important.
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Old 22 October 2021, 19:48   #398
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How about the fact that custom->bltsize doesn't allow PAL sized blits.
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Old 22 October 2021, 22:00   #399
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Originally Posted by deimos View Post
How about the fact that custom->bltsize doesn't allow PAL sized blits.
And copper can't count (wait) enough lines.
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Old 23 October 2021, 17:55   #400
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Something else Amiga did wrong from day 1: The super ugly, crappy boot picture that looks like it was drawn in 30 seconds.
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