Anyone Need OS 1.x Support?

Daedalus · 21 August 2015, 17:28

I'm currently working on building up the Blitz Basic / AmiBlitz support section of AmigaCoding.com, and I was wondering does anyone actually need OS 1.x support for system-friendly programs these days?

I'm writing guides on how to create GUIs using various toolkits (GadTools and MUI really). Blitz still has support for the older Intuition gadgets and menus from the pre-GadTools 1.x days, but I'm wondering if it's worth my while writing guides if nobody's ever likely to use them?

Cheers!

saimon69 · 21 August 2015, 19:13

Might be useful, have a 1.2 at home in italy and if i recover it would become a good test platform

Daedalus · 21 August 2015, 19:33

Fair enough, I'll add it when I have the newer stuff sorted.

Etze · 21 August 2015, 21:45

Yes, I need 1.3 support.

klx300r · 21 August 2015, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by etze

yes, i need 1.3 support.

+1

Fendrix · 21 August 2015, 23:29

Daedalus · 22 August 2015, 20:17

Cool. Need to brush up on it myself first

Cylon · 29 August 2015, 01:19

+1.
Please keep in mind that AmiBlitz is not 1.x nor nonFPU compatible. BlitzBasic still is. Regarding GUI there is ARP and GadTools1.3, which are both usable with BB2.
Also, even without "modern" GUI-toolkits the BB2 Gadgets are quite usable and effective, so there is no excuse to not support this!

Daedalus · 29 August 2015, 22:46

Yep, true. I've got the basics of the old gadgets done now, some finer details still to be written up though. But damn, it's so long since I used them I'd forgotten just how rubbish they are! Great for 1985 I guess, but even GadTools is a world of difference for the better.

As I go, if there are compatibility issues or differences between Blitz and AmiBlitz I'm putting in a note about it, though I should add the whole FPU thing as a general point. The code doesn't necessarily use FPU opcodes, but it's not easy to tell when the compiler sticks them in. I've so far been able to make executables that don't need an FPU, but it's a trial-and-error process and a total PITA.

Cylon · 02 September 2015, 22:33

IMO you should dismiss support for pre2.0 GadTools with AmiBlitz at all. You cannot use it properly and you cannot test it the way you can with BlitzBasic2. the CompilerIDE itself heavily requires new systems, supporting the old GUI always ends up messy.
AmiBlitz is for newer and better GUI-toolkits, don't bother grasping all the problems coming up while using Blitzgadgets from AmiBlitz. ;-)

Cylon · 09 October 2015, 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon

IMO you should dismiss support for pre2.0 GadTools with AmiBlitz at all. You cannot use it properly and you cannot test it the way you can with BlitzBasic2. the CompilerIDE itself heavily requires new systems, supporting the old GUI always ends up messy.
AmiBlitz is for newer and better GUI-toolkits, don't bother grasping all the problems coming up while using Blitzgadgets from AmiBlitz. ;-)

Well, the created structures within Blitz2 are (still) valid for Kick 2.x+ and can be drawn with systems routines. I guess, at least for 3.x (and below) programms the BlitzGads will do just fine.

Daedalus · 09 October 2015, 11:46

Okay, I've covered the old 1.x Blitz gadgets reasonably well, though I need to get screenshots of the examples working under 1.x (and probably 3.x as well to show the palette differences). Haven't bothered with things like Gadtools support for 1.x - at this stage anyone still using 1.x isn't likely to be a power user with lots of extra toolkits and patches installed, and if they are, they probably don't need simple tutorials like mine.

1.x Intuition menus are covered as well, as are 2.x GadTools. MUI needs more fleshing out, but there's probably enough there to let people get going and figure the rest out using the MUI autodocs.

Let me know if there's something else I've missed!

Cylon · 10 October 2015, 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Okay, I've covered the old 1.x Blitz gadgets reasonably well, though I need to get screenshots of the examples working under 1.x (and probably 3.x as well to show the palette differences).

Palette differences are caused by the screens/windows pens, which are swapped (hibrite/shadow) between 1.x/2.x. The drawing of the 1.x Blitz gads is done with the OS's code (AddGList() etc.), so there should be no influence on colours from this angle.

Daedalus · 12 October 2015, 11:04

That should be the case, but if you try it you'll find that gadgets look raised in 1.x, but look recessed if the exact same code is run under 3.x. Using the 1.x palette on a 3.x machine will make the gadgets look normal again, but at the end of the day, the OS doesn't really know which colour values are shine and shadow, so you need to set them based on the OS your program is running on.

Cylon · 05 November 2015, 00:05

Pens are set from Screen/Window init. The palette used doesn't matter. You can run a program with Hi/sh pen gads in different environment and you'lll see the result-

Daedalus · 05 November 2015, 10:50

Pens are indeed set from Screen/Window init, but that doesn't take the palette into account. Of course the palette matters - if your palette has the pens swapped, the buttons will be inverted and your software won't know about it. Try run the original Blitz Basic 2.1 under OS 2.0+ and you'll see exactly what I mean - all the gadgets are recessed by default because the pens are set based on the 1.x palette. If you swap the palette around then it all looks fine (but obviously all other software, WB windows etc. look odd), and if you boot from the Blitz 2.1 floppy it uses the 3.1 palette so the gadgets look normal from the start.

Maybe you're thinking about GadTools, which is designed for 2.x up and so assumes the 2.x palette setup by default. I'm talking about the older Intuition gadgets, and included a section in their description about the BorderPens command which can be used to sort out the pens.

Cylon · 09 November 2015, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Of course the palette matters - if your palette has the pens swapped, the buttons will be inverted and your software won't know about it.

And i should not care - just think about it. The colours might be set by the user himself, my code should use the pens named #shadow and #hilight, whatever those may be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Maybe you're thinking about GadTools, which is designed for 2.x up and so assumes the 2.x palette setup by default. I'm talking about the older Intuition gadgets, and included a section in their description about the BorderPens command which can be used to sort out the pens.

This is not required as far as i know, as the shadow/hilight pens are swapped both in gadgetslib and screenslib/windowslib throughout.
Just tell the coder to maintain the numbers as needed.

21 August 2015, 17:28	#1
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Anyone Need OS 1.x Support? I'm currently working on building up the Blitz Basic / AmiBlitz support section of AmigaCoding.com, and I was wondering does anyone actually need OS 1.x support for system-friendly programs these days? I'm writing guides on how to create GUIs using various toolkits (GadTools and MUI really). Blitz still has support for the older Intuition gadgets and menus from the pre-GadTools 1.x days, but I'm wondering if it's worth my while writing guides if nobody's ever likely to use them? Cheers!

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21 August 2015, 19:13	#2
saimon69 J.M.D - Bedroom Musician Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: los angeles,ca Posts: 3,268	Might be useful, have a 1.2 at home in italy and if i recover it would become a good test platform

21 August 2015, 19:33	#3
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Fair enough, I'll add it when I have the newer stuff sorted.

21 August 2015, 21:45	#4
Etze A3000-Fan Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 299	Yes, I need 1.3 support.

21 August 2015, 23:29	#6
Fendrix Registered User Join Date: May 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 74

22 August 2015, 20:17	#7
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Cool. Need to brush up on it myself first

29 August 2015, 01:19	#8
Cylon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Europe Posts: 466	+1. Please keep in mind that AmiBlitz is not 1.x nor nonFPU compatible. BlitzBasic still is. Regarding GUI there is ARP and GadTools1.3, which are both usable with BB2. Also, even without "modern" GUI-toolkits the BB2 Gadgets are quite usable and effective, so there is no excuse to not support this!

29 August 2015, 22:46	#9
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Yep, true. I've got the basics of the old gadgets done now, some finer details still to be written up though. But damn, it's so long since I used them I'd forgotten just how rubbish they are! Great for 1985 I guess, but even GadTools is a world of difference for the better. As I go, if there are compatibility issues or differences between Blitz and AmiBlitz I'm putting in a note about it, though I should add the whole FPU thing as a general point. The code doesn't necessarily use FPU opcodes, but it's not easy to tell when the compiler sticks them in. I've so far been able to make executables that don't need an FPU, but it's a trial-and-error process and a total PITA.

02 September 2015, 22:33	#10
Cylon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Europe Posts: 466	IMO you should dismiss support for pre2.0 GadTools with AmiBlitz at all. You cannot use it properly and you cannot test it the way you can with BlitzBasic2. the CompilerIDE itself heavily requires new systems, supporting the old GUI always ends up messy. AmiBlitz is for newer and better GUI-toolkits, don't bother grasping all the problems coming up while using Blitzgadgets from AmiBlitz. ;-)

09 October 2015, 11:46	#12
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Okay, I've covered the old 1.x Blitz gadgets reasonably well, though I need to get screenshots of the examples working under 1.x (and probably 3.x as well to show the palette differences). Haven't bothered with things like Gadtools support for 1.x - at this stage anyone still using 1.x isn't likely to be a power user with lots of extra toolkits and patches installed, and if they are, they probably don't need simple tutorials like mine. 1.x Intuition menus are covered as well, as are 2.x GadTools. MUI needs more fleshing out, but there's probably enough there to let people get going and figure the rest out using the MUI autodocs. Let me know if there's something else I've missed!

12 October 2015, 11:04	#14
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	That should be the case, but if you try it you'll find that gadgets look raised in 1.x, but look recessed if the exact same code is run under 3.x. Using the 1.x palette on a 3.x machine will make the gadgets look normal again, but at the end of the day, the OS doesn't really know which colour values are shine and shadow, so you need to set them based on the OS your program is running on.

05 November 2015, 00:05	#15
Cylon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Europe Posts: 466	Pens are set from Screen/Window init. The palette used doesn't matter. You can run a program with Hi/sh pen gads in different environment and you'lll see the result-

05 November 2015, 10:50	#16
Daedalus Registered User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dublin, then Glasgow Posts: 6,179	Pens are indeed set from Screen/Window init, but that doesn't take the palette into account. Of course the palette matters - if your palette has the pens swapped, the buttons will be inverted and your software won't know about it. Try run the original Blitz Basic 2.1 under OS 2.0+ and you'll see exactly what I mean - all the gadgets are recessed by default because the pens are set based on the 1.x palette. If you swap the palette around then it all looks fine (but obviously all other software, WB windows etc. look odd), and if you boot from the Blitz 2.1 floppy it uses the 3.1 palette so the gadgets look normal from the start. Maybe you're thinking about GadTools, which is designed for 2.x up and so assumes the 2.x palette setup by default. I'm talking about the older Intuition gadgets, and included a section in their description about the BorderPens command which can be used to sort out the pens.

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