The Grail by Microdeal - Page 4

mk1 · 04 January 2018, 18:19

According to the manual:

"The version of your title that is for release should be backed up in 'Locked' mode (unless you want other Talespin users to be able to change your work around). Needless to say, you should keep an unlocked version for yourself."

I think the standalone version is "locked" if you can't edit the .tal files.

mk1 · 04 January 2018, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by butfluffy

according the the info over at HOL the talespin version has been shortened.
does anyone know if there is a lot missing from the talespin version?
i wonder if it's possible to fix the original game or modify the talespin version files included inside the adf so it's not shorter than the original.

I think the games are the same. I don't know where that bit of info came from that the Talespin version is shorter. If the follow the Atari ST longplay on youtube and compary it with the Talespin version you should be able to see the differences, if any.

dlfrsilver · 04 January 2018, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryB

Just tried my original as an ADF in my FlashFloppy drive on my A500 ECS/1mb KS1.3 and it has the same issues as before, so it can't be completed on real hardware either!

to me this is a copy protection triggered. I don't see why the programmer would make a program that no one could finish.

It's nonesense.

BarryB · 04 January 2018, 20:09

Denis, have uploaded a CT RAW dump from my original streams, see if you can find anything wrong with that!

Also, there is a thread about games that cannot be finished because of programming errors/bugs so it can't all be 'nonsense' or every game could be finished

mk1 · 04 January 2018, 21:31

Ah, now I finally managed to complete the Talespin version of The Grail and it is indeed a little shorter than the standalone game (at least on Atari ST).

Here's how it continues in the standalone version after you have found the grail (the game ends here in Talespin):

[ Show youtube player ]

EDIT: Jump to 22:51 as the youtube player cannot :/

BarryB · 04 January 2018, 22:05

Always wondered why there was a diskone.tal file on my disk, just a pity we can't play the bloody thing!

mk1 · 04 January 2018, 22:09

Yes, seems that the standalone version cannot be finished unless someone manages to fix it first.

Oh well, I think this one got sorted. It wasn't much of a game anyway...

And finally, maybe those HOL screenshots are taken from the Talespin version of the game as all the shots from the part we cannot reach are missing?

BarryB · 04 January 2018, 22:31

I don't think it's copy protection, although Denis will know for sure when he checks the CT RAW dump. Another funny thing though is the standalone version has no sound whereas the Talespin version does, always wondered why I never heard any sound when playing the standalone version!

Makes me wonder if they mistakenly mastered an unfinished version for the standalone release?

mk1 · 04 January 2018, 23:12

Speaking of versions, I'm quite sure I had Talespin as the 16 Pocket Power Collection budget release which isn't mentioned in HOL.

Don't know if The Grail was ever released on budget or if they used different masters for different releases (The Prism Leisure release being another one).

BarryB · 05 January 2018, 20:41

Right, have now found my Gold Rush Collection that contains The Grail, setup my A500 and played using the real Disk and guess what! IT HAS THE SAME BLOODY ISSUES AS MY OTHER RETAIL COPY!!

So there you have it, ALL versions of The Grail tried so far are BROKEN, Talespin version and standalone as the CRIPPLE never appears so you can't complete it!

mk1 · 05 January 2018, 22:13

Maybe this game could be fixed by the WHDLoad crew?

dlfrsilver · 05 January 2018, 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryB

Right, have now found my Gold Rush Collection that contains The Grail, setup my A500 and played using the real Disk and guess what! IT HAS THE SAME BLOODY ISSUES AS MY OTHER RETAIL COPY!!

So there you have it, ALL versions of The Grail tried so far are BROKEN, Talespin version and standalone as the CRIPPLE never appears so you can't complete it!

Ok, i have checked your dump, your copy has been fully modified (all the 79 tracks!).

Next step : wait for my own original disk to come, and check how it is.

EDIT : Barry, your version dumped in CTraw format is the Talespin version.

BarryB · 05 January 2018, 23:08

Well it runs fine from HD in WinUAE, makes it a lot quicker to load so kept sleeping in the gutter but after trying about 30 times no cripple ever appeared

Might be better if one of the regular coders/crackers has a look? Or preferably, someone who's in contact with or can contact either Rudyard or Mark Heaton to ask if they know why the Amiga release is broken?

@Denis: I'll make another CT RAW from the Gold Rush Collection and upload that, we'll see if that's the same!

mk1 · 05 January 2018, 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryB

Or preferably, someone who's in contact with or can contact either Rudyard or Mark Heaton to ask if they know why the Amiga release is broken?

The Amiga conversions are made by Timothy M. Purves who's worked on several of the Microdeal conversions.

BarryB · 06 January 2018, 00:06

Have uploaded a KF Free dump of The Grail from the Gold Rush Collection to the Zone, dumped with my A1200.

@mk1: So, anyone in contact with Tim Purves?

@Denis: If this one shows modified then both probably mastered like it? Just downloaded my first CT RAW I uploaded and it's the standalone version, not the one in the Talespin creator?

mk1 · 06 January 2018, 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryB

@mk1: So, anyone in contact with Tim Purves?

Who knows, but a quick googling does bring out a lot of links to old software he's written both for ST and Amiga, and then this https://www.linkedin.com/in/timothypurves

I've no idea if it's him and I can think of even less reasons he'd be interested in responding to why his Amiga conversion from 1988 has a random generator bug

Steve · 06 January 2018, 00:46

I'm loving this thread. I love these detective work projects.

Here are my thoughts on the mystery. I bet what has happened is there was some kind of fk-up in the mastering of the disks and it modified all the data on every single track buggering up the probability algorithm which then rendered the game unplayable. Strange how the same mastering fault has occurred with different releases, but I can see no other logical explanation. It's fascinating though, reading this.

mk1 · 06 January 2018, 01:01

Indeed! It's definitely more exciting than playing the game we're all talking about here.

Maybe I should try my luck and ask that linkedin guy if it's him.

It shouldn't be too difficult to track down at least someone from Microdeal to give us some clues.

EDIT: If anyone has the willpower, one could try creating a new adventure in Talespin with a simple probability value on an item on screen and see if the bug is there always. I really think it's a bug they didn't find out while testing the Amiga conversion as it clearly seems to be absent from the Atari ST version.

dlfrsilver · 06 January 2018, 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryB

Have uploaded a KF Free dump of The Grail from the Gold Rush Collection to the Zone, dumped with my A1200.

@mk1: So, anyone in contact with Tim Purves?

@Denis: If this one shows modified then both probably mastered like it? Just downloaded my first CT RAW I uploaded and it's the standalone version, not the one in the Talespin creator?

Both versions you uploaded are seen as the TALESPIN release.

i see it when i read the HELP menu, bottom line.

This version has only 27 modified tracks.

BarryB · 06 January 2018, 01:37

Denis, my copies are both from different retail releases so I think the Talespin reference must just mean it was made USING Talespin and not mean it is the version that was INCLUDED in Talespin! mk1 has already shown the ST version is longer than the one in Talespin, and the fact it loads DISKONE shows the Amiga version must be the same as that too has a DISKONE file on it!!

No idea on the modified tracks though, maybe as Steve says, it's a mastering fk up or genuinely mastered like it? When you get your copy we'll have a better idea, if yours is broken too then that's 3 different copies with the same problems!

04 January 2018, 23:12	#69
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	Speaking of versions, I'm quite sure I had Talespin as the 16 Pocket Power Collection budget release which isn't mentioned in HOL. Don't know if The Grail was ever released on budget or if they used different masters for different releases (The Prism Leisure release being another one). Last edited by mk1; 04 January 2018 at 23:23.

06 January 2018, 00:06	#75
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Have uploaded a KF Free dump of The Grail from the Gold Rush Collection to the Zone, dumped with my A1200. @mk1: So, anyone in contact with Tim Purves? @Denis: If this one shows modified then both probably mastered like it? Just downloaded my first CT RAW I uploaded and it's the standalone version, not the one in the Talespin creator? Last edited by BarryB; 06 January 2018 at 00:21.

06 January 2018, 01:01	#78
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	Indeed! It's definitely more exciting than playing the game we're all talking about here. Maybe I should try my luck and ask that linkedin guy if it's him. It shouldn't be too difficult to track down at least someone from Microdeal to give us some clues. EDIT: If anyone has the willpower, one could try creating a new adventure in Talespin with a simple probability value on an item on screen and see if the bug is there always. I really think it's a bug they didn't find out while testing the Amiga conversion as it clearly seems to be absent from the Atari ST version. Last edited by mk1; 06 January 2018 at 01:07.

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04 January 2018, 18:19	#61
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	According to the manual: "The version of your title that is for release should be backed up in 'Locked' mode (unless you want other Talespin users to be able to change your work around). Needless to say, you should keep an unlocked version for yourself." I think the standalone version is "locked" if you can't edit the .tal files.

04 January 2018, 20:09	#64
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Denis, have uploaded a CT RAW dump from my original streams, see if you can find anything wrong with that! Also, there is a thread about games that cannot be finished because of programming errors/bugs so it can't all be 'nonsense' or every game could be finished

04 January 2018, 21:31	#65
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	Ah, now I finally managed to complete the Talespin version of The Grail and it is indeed a little shorter than the standalone game (at least on Atari ST). Here's how it continues in the standalone version after you have found the grail (the game ends here in Talespin): [ Show youtube player ] EDIT: Jump to 22:51 as the youtube player cannot :/

04 January 2018, 22:05	#66
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Always wondered why there was a diskone.tal file on my disk, just a pity we can't play the bloody thing!

04 January 2018, 22:09	#67
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	Yes, seems that the standalone version cannot be finished unless someone manages to fix it first. Oh well, I think this one got sorted. It wasn't much of a game anyway... And finally, maybe those HOL screenshots are taken from the Talespin version of the game as all the shots from the part we cannot reach are missing?

04 January 2018, 22:31	#68
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	I don't think it's copy protection, although Denis will know for sure when he checks the CT RAW dump. Another funny thing though is the standalone version has no sound whereas the Talespin version does, always wondered why I never heard any sound when playing the standalone version! Makes me wonder if they mistakenly mastered an unfinished version for the standalone release?

05 January 2018, 20:41	#70
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Right, have now found my Gold Rush Collection that contains The Grail, setup my A500 and played using the real Disk and guess what! IT HAS THE SAME BLOODY ISSUES AS MY OTHER RETAIL COPY!! So there you have it, ALL versions of The Grail tried so far are BROKEN, Talespin version and standalone as the CRIPPLE never appears so you can't complete it!

05 January 2018, 22:13	#71
mk1 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Helsinki / Finland Posts: 403	Maybe this game could be fixed by the WHDLoad crew?

05 January 2018, 23:08	#73
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Well it runs fine from HD in WinUAE, makes it a lot quicker to load so kept sleeping in the gutter but after trying about 30 times no cripple ever appeared Might be better if one of the regular coders/crackers has a look? Or preferably, someone who's in contact with or can contact either Rudyard or Mark Heaton to ask if they know why the Amiga release is broken? @Denis: I'll make another CT RAW from the Gold Rush Collection and upload that, we'll see if that's the same!

06 January 2018, 00:46	#77
Steve I Identify as an Ewok Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: North Lincolnshire Age: 45 Posts: 2,356	I'm loving this thread. I love these detective work projects. Here are my thoughts on the mystery. I bet what has happened is there was some kind of fk-up in the mastering of the disks and it modified all the data on every single track buggering up the probability algorithm which then rendered the game unplayable. Strange how the same mastering fault has occurred with different releases, but I can see no other logical explanation. It's fascinating though, reading this.

06 January 2018, 01:37	#80
BarryB Amigaholic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 4,679	Denis, my copies are both from different retail releases so I think the Talespin reference must just mean it was made USING Talespin and not mean it is the version that was INCLUDED in Talespin! mk1 has already shown the ST version is longer than the one in Talespin, and the fact it loads DISKONE shows the Amiga version must be the same as that too has a DISKONE file on it!! No idea on the modified tracks though, maybe as Steve says, it's a mastering fk up or genuinely mastered like it? When you get your copy we'll have a better idea, if yours is broken too then that's 3 different copies with the same problems!

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