Super League Feedback

Biscuit · 25 November 2020, 16:36

In case anyone missed it, Lifeschool has recently announced on Lemon Amiga that he is stepping down as lead mod of the Super League and has handed over the reigns to me. Just want to says thanks once again to him for all the hard work over the years keeping things running well.

I'm interested in making some alterations to the schedule based on feedback we have received over the last few seasons. There's been a lot of discussion about getting the best mix of games that keep people engaged. Also about how to pace the season.

In order to balance everyone's preferences I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the following points.

Double Rounds - is the current number enough, not enough, too much?

Themed Rounds - what is your preferred ratio of themed rounds/games compared to normal rounds/games?

Is the Summer Break necessary?

Is there any interest in changing or simplifying the Knockout?

Plus any other comments you want to make.

edit: feel free to PM me if you prefer.

capehorn · 26 November 2020, 22:24

Here are my thoughts, although I only tend to dip in nowadays if there is a game I particuarly want to play, so I really don't mind if I get outvoted on any of this...

Double Rounds - I was never that keen on these and would rather just play one game at a time. Someone on Lemon mentioned that these work better with PD or shorter games, I'd agree with that, it's not bad at all for the PD round, but when two long games get voted in a double round, it's a big turn-off for me.

Themed Rounds - I like things like the Year and Alphabet rounds, but I'm not so keen on rounds like Tennis/Golf and Fighting Games. If we want to play these games, we can vote for them on our own without being told to

Is the Summer Break necessary? - It doesn't bother me either way.

Is there any interest in changing or simplifying the Knockout? - No, it's perfect as it is!

Rolling back the voting limit to games we've played three years ago is a good idea so we can play the crowd-pleasers more often. I actually think the Open Round system we had was a bit backwards, I'd have prefered most voting rounds being open, and if that results in too many old games being voted in again, then the solution might be a limited number of 'Closed Rounds' to ensure some new games get played. I felt this was a bit of an issue while we were doing a six-year limit, but with a three-year limit, I doubt it will be much of an issue.

Dan said something about savestates, practicing and auto-fire. Do you have an announcement about any of these?

Biscuit · 27 November 2020, 00:12

Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capehorn

Dan said something about savestates, practicing and auto-fire. Do you have an announcement about any of these?

Lifeschool, John4p, and I agreed on a new set of overall rules.

I'm going to wait over the weekend for any more feedback, then put up a proposed season for next year. That will include all the info.

Biscuit · 30 November 2020, 08:36

Rather than start a new thread I will put this here.

Proposed Super League 2021

Not long left until Season 14 is upon us. Yikes.

There has been a lot of discussion this year about freshening up the league with a view to attracting more players and keeping things fun for the regulars. Questions about how to get the best games and balance out the desires of everyone that is interested in playing.

Behind the scenes, Lifeschool, John4p and I discussed a range of ideas and agreed on a number of points, some of which have already been mentioned. Based on what we considered, the last few details have been left to me. Those being the voting and schedule. No pressure.

Thank you for all the recent feedback. I've taken a long look and also read the feedback from the past few years. If we are to encourage more players then the views of people who have since stopped playing are still important if they are ever to return. The end result is a combination of new and old ideas, which is still familiar to current players.

Nothing is set in stone at this point. I don't think it's a particularly wild change, but if enough people want to change something again then we have time to sort that out. Either through a quick discussion or by arranging a vote.

There are changes to both the voting and the schedule which I will elaborate on along the way. The overall approach is to open up the voting and get the conditions right for a mix of games that keeps the momentum going for everyone's tastes.

Link to Lemon thread

......

Proposed Super League 2021

Season starts on the second Sunday of January.
Rounds begin on Sundays.

A total of 14 Rounds

Comprising:
11 single game rounds, at 3 weeks long.
1 double game round, at 3 weeks long (PD Games)
2 double game rounds, at 4 weeks long.

In response to feedback saying it is difficult to fully play two games in 3 weeks and post a competitive score, double rounds have been reduced to 3, and 2 of them extended to 4 weeks.

This would make the league 2 weeks longer and with 1 less game, for a total of 17 games. This would be accommodated by running a shorter Knockout at the end of the year. Details below.

The summer break has been kept. The Summer Slam game would be chosen to be a quick to play crowd pleaser. Non-league as usual.

See below for an example schedule.

......

The voting limitation on previously played games would be reduced to the last 44 games. This is a little over two and a half years worth of games. Due to this open rounds would end.

......

The season would start with two normal rounds, then alternate between themed and normal rounds.

6 themed rounds (9 games)
8 normal rounds (8 games)

The chosen themes are Franchise, Magazine, Back Catalogue, PD Games, Year and Mystery.

Franchise has you choose any game that is part of a series on Amiga. There are browsable categories for this on the Lemon database and Hall of Light.

Magazine is as usual. Three consecutive magazine issues selected at random. A chance to use my 12 sided dice.

Back Catalogue. Starting with the game played in round 1, a pool of games is created using the other games made by the coders, artists and musicians as listed on Lemon and Hall of Light. Going through the personnel in that order, and moving on to the next game played in the season if necessary, the list is complete when there are at least 30 suitable games.

Public Domain Games is as usual.

Year is as usual. The year would be chosen by the winner of round 8.

Mystery is as usual. Player submitted lesser known games.

......

Voting

Vote for up to 5 games.
Rank them 1 to 5.
Each vote for a game gives it 10 points.
Ties are decided by the number of 1st place votes, etc.
No more double voting.

This system would ensure that the winning game(s) have been voted for by the largest number of people. Thus are the most popular.

There would be no requirement to vote for 5 games. If you can only think of 1 game you want to play, then vote for only 1 game. Therefore all games voted for are ones people actively want to play.

The next round's game(s) would be known 1 week beforehand, giving time to decide any scoring methods and game options in advance and with consensus from the players.

......

All games would be scored. With efforts to include as many games as possible.

The current Super 7 scoring system and league tables would continue to be used.

The Lemon vs EAB team aspect would end. One big family going forward.

......

Posted scores must have been played during the round with no use of trainers, save-states, passwords or cheats. Using a refresh rate of at least 50Hz. No continues unless a game specific exemption is made. No infinite score leeching.

Players can practice however they like.

Auto fire is allowed for all games.

Modern controllers and remapping keys is allowed.

......

The Knockout would be shortened to a quick fire event playing the top 4 voted games.
Qualifying to last 2 weeks.
8 players go through to the Player vs Player rounds.
Quarters, Semis, and the Final Round each lasting 1 week.

......

Here is how the 2021 schedule would look. I've only put the game rounds up. Voting would take place at the usual time, lasting 2 weeks and finishing 1 week before the next round.

Dates are for the starting Sundays.

Jan 10 - Round 1
Jan 31 - Round 2
Feb 21 - Round 3: Franchise
Mar 14 - Round 4
Apr 04 - Round 5: Magazine (Double)
May 02 - Round 6
May 23 - Round 7: Back Catalogue

Jun 13 - Summer Slam (3 weeks)

Jul 04 - Round 8
Jul 25 - Round 9: PD Games (Double)
Aug 15 - Round 10
Sep 05 - Round 11: Year
Sep 26 - Round 12
Oct 17 - Round 13: Mystery (Double)
Nov 14 - Round 14

Dec 05 to Jan 08 - Knockout (5 weeks)

Dec 26 - Voting for next season
Jan 09 - 2022 Season

......

Announcements for new rounds and voting threads will be available via a dedicated Twitter account and time permitting I will post occasional articles relating to Super League games on my Amiga blog. Also promoting links to the Super League from there.

......

I think that covers all the important bits.

The main aims for next year, besides having some fun, are to have more players join us and for long time regulars to have games they are interested in playing. This is the reasoning for the suggested changes to the voting system, round schedule, and increasing the number of previously played games that can be voted for.

There have been a number of simplifications made to guarantee the smooth running of the season and some re-organising to maintain the variety of games and give players regular opportunities to vote for their preferred choices. More space has been created for the possibility of some classics returning in between new and unusual games. We generally find that even with a completely open vote new games are frequently chosen and I expect to see that continue regardless. The voting system will guarantee that only the most popular games are voted in. I'm hopeful this would lead to a well balanced mix of games throughout the year that keeps players coming back for more.

Please let me know if you are in favour of or against this plan. And any comments you have about it. Looking forward to your feedback.

Over to you.

capehorn · 30 November 2020, 14:23

That seems a very well rounded set of ideas. The Number One Fan round jumps out to me as a particularly interesting one.

Harry · 30 November 2020, 21:55

This sounds like a well-thought competition system. I am looking forward to participate.

Nevertheless I think I will miss the completion stars of Leaderboard, and the possibility to play unscorable games. But if the 2 competitions can be united again thats also a big thing to look forward.

Biscuit · 01 December 2020, 10:24

There's been a clear desire to keep the mystery round. I've exchanged it for the most similar round, Number One Fan (sorry capehorn). And slightly changed the order of the themes. All updated in the earlier post.

Harry · 01 December 2020, 19:57

Oops, there it is back, the mystery round. I didnt find the outcome convincing enough, but I have now searched and found now some games and with the possibility to vote also less than 5 games it may be ok for me.

I just hope that it will also be allowed to submit only one game.

Biscuit · 01 December 2020, 23:36

It's popular, though I do appreciate that it can split opinion. It's very dependant on the games that people submit. I will be putting plenty of thought into it.

I want to get as big a pool of games as possible. So I will be asking for submissions of up to 3 games. If you can only think of 1, that is fine. The more games in the vote the better.

happymondays · 02 December 2020, 02:17

I never participated in this before, but it sounds good, so I might join for next year.

Biscuit · 02 December 2020, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymondays

I never participated in this before, but it sounds good, so I might join for next year.

Cool. Hope to see you when the voting starts.

Graham Humphrey · 16 December 2020, 00:35

Hey, I remember this...

It's brilliant to see this is still going. Season 14 coming soon, eh? 14? Where the hell did that all go?

I hope you're all doing well. Thanks for the efforts in keeping it running - I'll dip back in for some games next year!

capehorn · 16 December 2020, 00:47

Good to see you back Graham!

Predseda · 16 December 2020, 08:12

My jaw just dropped...

malko · 16 December 2020, 08:37

Whaoooo

Nice to see this caste back in the scene's spotlight

Biscuit · 16 December 2020, 09:41

Hey Graham, finally getting the band back together.

25 November 2020, 16:36	#1
Biscuit Baked Produce Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 43 Posts: 1,197	Super League Feedback In case anyone missed it, Lifeschool has recently announced on Lemon Amiga that he is stepping down as lead mod of the Super League and has handed over the reigns to me. Just want to says thanks once again to him for all the hard work over the years keeping things running well. I'm interested in making some alterations to the schedule based on feedback we have received over the last few seasons. There's been a lot of discussion about getting the best mix of games that keep people engaged. Also about how to pace the season. In order to balance everyone's preferences I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on the following points. Double Rounds - is the current number enough, not enough, too much? Themed Rounds - what is your preferred ratio of themed rounds/games compared to normal rounds/games? Is the Summer Break necessary? Is there any interest in changing or simplifying the Knockout? Plus any other comments you want to make. edit: feel free to PM me if you prefer. Last edited by Biscuit; 25 November 2020 at 17:27.

30 November 2020, 08:36	#4
Biscuit Baked Produce Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 43 Posts: 1,197	Rather than start a new thread I will put this here. Proposed Super League 2021 Not long left until Season 14 is upon us. Yikes. There has been a lot of discussion this year about freshening up the league with a view to attracting more players and keeping things fun for the regulars. Questions about how to get the best games and balance out the desires of everyone that is interested in playing. Behind the scenes, Lifeschool, John4p and I discussed a range of ideas and agreed on a number of points, some of which have already been mentioned. Based on what we considered, the last few details have been left to me. Those being the voting and schedule. No pressure. Thank you for all the recent feedback. I've taken a long look and also read the feedback from the past few years. If we are to encourage more players then the views of people who have since stopped playing are still important if they are ever to return. The end result is a combination of new and old ideas, which is still familiar to current players. Nothing is set in stone at this point. I don't think it's a particularly wild change, but if enough people want to change something again then we have time to sort that out. Either through a quick discussion or by arranging a vote. There are changes to both the voting and the schedule which I will elaborate on along the way. The overall approach is to open up the voting and get the conditions right for a mix of games that keeps the momentum going for everyone's tastes. Link to Lemon thread ...... Proposed Super League 2021 Season starts on the second Sunday of January. Rounds begin on Sundays. A total of 14 Rounds Comprising: 11 single game rounds, at 3 weeks long. 1 double game round, at 3 weeks long (PD Games) 2 double game rounds, at 4 weeks long. In response to feedback saying it is difficult to fully play two games in 3 weeks and post a competitive score, double rounds have been reduced to 3, and 2 of them extended to 4 weeks. This would make the league 2 weeks longer and with 1 less game, for a total of 17 games. This would be accommodated by running a shorter Knockout at the end of the year. Details below. The summer break has been kept. The Summer Slam game would be chosen to be a quick to play crowd pleaser. Non-league as usual. See below for an example schedule. ...... The voting limitation on previously played games would be reduced to the last 44 games. This is a little over two and a half years worth of games. Due to this open rounds would end. ...... The season would start with two normal rounds, then alternate between themed and normal rounds. 6 themed rounds (9 games) 8 normal rounds (8 games) The chosen themes are Franchise, Magazine, Back Catalogue, PD Games, Year and Mystery. Franchise has you choose any game that is part of a series on Amiga. There are browsable categories for this on the Lemon database and Hall of Light. Magazine is as usual. Three consecutive magazine issues selected at random. A chance to use my 12 sided dice. Back Catalogue. Starting with the game played in round 1, a pool of games is created using the other games made by the coders, artists and musicians as listed on Lemon and Hall of Light. Going through the personnel in that order, and moving on to the next game played in the season if necessary, the list is complete when there are at least 30 suitable games. Public Domain Games is as usual. Year is as usual. The year would be chosen by the winner of round 8. Mystery is as usual. Player submitted lesser known games. ...... Voting Vote for up to 5 games. Rank them 1 to 5. Each vote for a game gives it 10 points. Ties are decided by the number of 1st place votes, etc. No more double voting. This system would ensure that the winning game(s) have been voted for by the largest number of people. Thus are the most popular. There would be no requirement to vote for 5 games. If you can only think of 1 game you want to play, then vote for only 1 game. Therefore all games voted for are ones people actively want to play. The next round's game(s) would be known 1 week beforehand, giving time to decide any scoring methods and game options in advance and with consensus from the players. ...... All games would be scored. With efforts to include as many games as possible. The current Super 7 scoring system and league tables would continue to be used. The Lemon vs EAB team aspect would end. One big family going forward. ...... Posted scores must have been played during the round with no use of trainers, save-states, passwords or cheats. Using a refresh rate of at least 50Hz. No continues unless a game specific exemption is made. No infinite score leeching. Players can practice however they like. Auto fire is allowed for all games. Modern controllers and remapping keys is allowed. ...... The Knockout would be shortened to a quick fire event playing the top 4 voted games. Qualifying to last 2 weeks. 8 players go through to the Player vs Player rounds. Quarters, Semis, and the Final Round each lasting 1 week. ...... Here is how the 2021 schedule would look. I've only put the game rounds up. Voting would take place at the usual time, lasting 2 weeks and finishing 1 week before the next round. Dates are for the starting Sundays. Jan 10 - Round 1 Jan 31 - Round 2 Feb 21 - Round 3: Franchise Mar 14 - Round 4 Apr 04 - Round 5: Magazine (Double) May 02 - Round 6 May 23 - Round 7: Back Catalogue Jun 13 - Summer Slam (3 weeks) Jul 04 - Round 8 Jul 25 - Round 9: PD Games (Double) Aug 15 - Round 10 Sep 05 - Round 11: Year Sep 26 - Round 12 Oct 17 - Round 13: Mystery (Double) Nov 14 - Round 14 Dec 05 to Jan 08 - Knockout (5 weeks) Dec 26 - Voting for next season Jan 09 - 2022 Season ...... Announcements for new rounds and voting threads will be available via a dedicated Twitter account and time permitting I will post occasional articles relating to Super League games on my Amiga blog. Also promoting links to the Super League from there. ...... I think that covers all the important bits. The main aims for next year, besides having some fun, are to have more players join us and for long time regulars to have games they are interested in playing. This is the reasoning for the suggested changes to the voting system, round schedule, and increasing the number of previously played games that can be voted for. There have been a number of simplifications made to guarantee the smooth running of the season and some re-organising to maintain the variety of games and give players regular opportunities to vote for their preferred choices. More space has been created for the possibility of some classics returning in between new and unusual games. We generally find that even with a completely open vote new games are frequently chosen and I expect to see that continue regardless. The voting system will guarantee that only the most popular games are voted in. I'm hopeful this would lead to a well balanced mix of games throughout the year that keeps players coming back for more. Please let me know if you are in favour of or against this plan. And any comments you have about it. Looking forward to your feedback. Over to you. Last edited by Biscuit; 01 December 2020 at 10:10.

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26 November 2020, 22:24	#2
capehorn Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 1,794	Here are my thoughts, although I only tend to dip in nowadays if there is a game I particuarly want to play, so I really don't mind if I get outvoted on any of this... Double Rounds - I was never that keen on these and would rather just play one game at a time. Someone on Lemon mentioned that these work better with PD or shorter games, I'd agree with that, it's not bad at all for the PD round, but when two long games get voted in a double round, it's a big turn-off for me. Themed Rounds - I like things like the Year and Alphabet rounds, but I'm not so keen on rounds like Tennis/Golf and Fighting Games. If we want to play these games, we can vote for them on our own without being told to Is the Summer Break necessary? - It doesn't bother me either way. Is there any interest in changing or simplifying the Knockout? - No, it's perfect as it is! Rolling back the voting limit to games we've played three years ago is a good idea so we can play the crowd-pleasers more often. I actually think the Open Round system we had was a bit backwards, I'd have prefered most voting rounds being open, and if that results in too many old games being voted in again, then the solution might be a limited number of 'Closed Rounds' to ensure some new games get played. I felt this was a bit of an issue while we were doing a six-year limit, but with a three-year limit, I doubt it will be much of an issue. Dan said something about savestates, practicing and auto-fire. Do you have an announcement about any of these?

30 November 2020, 14:23	#5
capehorn Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 1,794	That seems a very well rounded set of ideas. The Number One Fan round jumps out to me as a particularly interesting one.

30 November 2020, 21:55	#6
Harry HD Installer Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hamburg/Germany Posts: 1,068	This sounds like a well-thought competition system. I am looking forward to participate. Nevertheless I think I will miss the completion stars of Leaderboard, and the possibility to play unscorable games. But if the 2 competitions can be united again thats also a big thing to look forward.

01 December 2020, 10:24	#7
Biscuit Baked Produce Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 43 Posts: 1,197	There's been a clear desire to keep the mystery round. I've exchanged it for the most similar round, Number One Fan (sorry capehorn). And slightly changed the order of the themes. All updated in the earlier post.

01 December 2020, 19:57	#8
Harry HD Installer Join Date: May 2010 Location: Hamburg/Germany Posts: 1,068	Oops, there it is back, the mystery round. I didnt find the outcome convincing enough, but I have now searched and found now some games and with the possibility to vote also less than 5 games it may be ok for me. I just hope that it will also be allowed to submit only one game.

01 December 2020, 23:36	#9
Biscuit Baked Produce Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 43 Posts: 1,197	It's popular, though I do appreciate that it can split opinion. It's very dependant on the games that people submit. I will be putting plenty of thought into it. I want to get as big a pool of games as possible. So I will be asking for submissions of up to 3 games. If you can only think of 1, that is fine. The more games in the vote the better.

02 December 2020, 02:17	#10
happymondays Registered User Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Szeged Posts: 219	I never participated in this before, but it sounds good, so I might join for next year.

16 December 2020, 00:35	#12
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	Hey, I remember this... It's brilliant to see this is still going. Season 14 coming soon, eh? 14? Where the hell did that all go? I hope you're all doing well. Thanks for the efforts in keeping it running - I'll dip back in for some games next year!

16 December 2020, 00:47	#13
capehorn Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 1,794	Good to see you back Graham!

16 December 2020, 08:12	#14
Predseda Puttymoon inhabitant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tromaville Age: 46 Posts: 7,539	My jaw just dropped...

16 December 2020, 08:37	#15
malko Ex nihilo nihil Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: CH Posts: 4,856	Whaoooo Nice to see this caste back in the scene's spotlight

16 December 2020, 09:41	#16
Biscuit Baked Produce Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Age: 43 Posts: 1,197	Hey Graham, finally getting the band back together.

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