02 May 2024, 16:00 | #3981 | |||||
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That 12 cycles "dot product" mentioned by you is the algorithm used in audio processing, FFT, not vector graphics. This is just a similarity of names. But who knows, maybe we can somehow use FFT for vector graphics Quote:
But still, after cost cutting it wasn't worst than other 32bit machines in terms of memory bandwidth. Anyway Atari had semi pro edition Falcon Microbox with full 32bit CPU path. Microbox was ready to release in '92. Quote:
I heard a different story, which is documented on Atari-forum. Generally, Falcon is very compatible, almost all ST applications works fine (thanks to the OS), with more colors, more ram and better sound. Regarding games, there are some issues, similar to 1200, issues relate do the CPU. Different CPU with a different stack size, different instructions (some old are forbidden), instruction cache and data cache (not present in Amiga 1200). Amiga has WHDLoad, Atari has Backward (old solution) and HAGA/HAGE(new solution) Anyway, 16bit has nothing to do with compatibility. Quote:
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That 16bit is much slower than 12~15MB/s 386 but is faster than 32bit A1200/A4000 bus: RAM Bus Bandwidth for CPU 16bit access: - Amiga 1200: Read: 2.2MB/s Write: 3.5MB/s (2 chipset cycles 3.5MHz per 32bit) - Amiga 4000: Read: 2.3MB/s Write: 2.3MB/s (2 chipset cycles 3.5MHz per 32bit) - Atari: Read: 5.4MB/s Write: 6.5MB/s (2 chipset cycles 8MHz per 16bit) RAM Bus Bandwidth for CPU 32bit access: - Amiga 1200: Read: 4.5MB/s Write: 6.9MB/s (2 chipset cycles 3.5MHz per 32bit) (BusSpeedTest 0.19) - Amiga 4000: Read: 4.6MB/s Write: 4.6MB/s (2 chipset cycles 3.5MHz per 32bit) (BusSpeedTest 0.19) - Atari: Read: 5.4MB/s Write: 6.5MB/s (2 chipset cycles 8MHz per 16bit) |
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02 May 2024, 16:55 | #3982 | |
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No games used more than few MBytes on both system, 600MB storage capacity was wasted. We see later big enough games on PS1, which could handle them. Only FMV addition would not save the day. |
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02 May 2024, 19:09 | #3983 | |
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And accordingly to my knowledge in 3D you are operating with vectors (but perhaps i'm wrong on this - sorry). |
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02 May 2024, 19:56 | #3984 | |
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Microcosm is much better on it than others version, even better than the 3DO one. The best version of a Bad game Sadly (thankfully in fact ) the FMV hype lasted a couple of years. Commodore bet on the wrong horse (and every FMV games for the CD32 were cancelled anyway. ) |
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02 May 2024, 20:52 | #3985 | |
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C= was the king of this kind of tricks once a time in their history. They could have think of it while working on on the CDTV II. Jay magic had been lost. |
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02 May 2024, 22:38 | #3986 | |
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By the way we reached 200 pages, congrats everybody and maybe see you at the 300th page also |
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02 May 2024, 23:48 | #3987 | |
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There seems to have been zero thought about any sort of future market alignment. |
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03 May 2024, 00:28 | #3988 |
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03 May 2024, 01:01 | #3989 | |
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03 May 2024, 01:49 | #3990 | ||
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The other thing the 'illiterates' needed was a reason to get a computer, which was the internet. 1995 was when it all came together, with Windows 95 and Internet Explorer, and ISPs such as Compuserve and America Online. FMV then became a big deal too, only now called 'streaming media'. Quote:
Yesterday I attempted to get Doom onto my 386SX system. It doesn't have a CD-ROM drive, network card or USB so the only option was floppy disks. I would need to copy the images files onto 4 floppies. After the 2nd disk failed to verify I gave up. Looks like my only option will be to pull the hard drive and install it into a more modern machine that has an IDE interface. CD-ROM broke down the barrier to larger games. If the game only took up 50MB the other 600MB wasn't 'wasted', it was just spare. It could be used for other stuff if you could be bothered creating it, eg. background music, instructions, demos of other games. But if it wasn't used it didn't matter - the CD had provided what was needed, a single disc that cost much less and was a lot more user-friendly than 30 floppy disks! |
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03 May 2024, 03:25 | #3991 | ||||
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03 May 2024, 04:04 | #3992 | ||
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https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...000plusaga.jpg With the AA3000+ prototype, Alice was fabricated by CSG while Lisa was fabricated by VTI (VLSI Technology, Inc). My UK A1200 Rev 1D4's Alice was fabricated by CSG. Lisa was problematic. AGA Lisa was implemented in 1.5 um process. Commodore has used 1.5 um for fabricating Alice. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/vti/vl86cx/vc2588 Acorn's VC2588 ARM1 prototype from 1985 was fabricated by VTI (VLSI)'s 3 um process. Amiga OCS was fabricated in a 5 um process. There could be production capacity with CSG's 1.5 um process. Quote:
CSG can fabricate C65's 8-bit plane display capable VIC-III chip. [ Show youtube player ] |
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03 May 2024, 04:26 | #3993 | |||
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BTW Sony had their own development system based on MIPS R4000 which was much more expensive. Small-time developers could forget about their dreams of producing innovative PlayStation games. The attraction of Psy-Q over the official Sony SDK was that mere mortals might be able to afford it. But how many did? Meanwhile any Amiga owner could grab a copy of Hisoft Devpac and Deluxe Paint, and be making hot Amiga games in their bedroom for peanuts. A good example of this is Another World:- The polygons of Another World: Amiga 500 Quote:
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03 May 2024, 04:33 | #3994 | ||||
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Turrcian 2 AGA needs Fast RAM for sustained 256 colors 50 hz. According to David John Pleasance's Commodore the Inside Story - The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant book, A1200 has a "healthy profit margin" for Commodore. Quote:
Turrcian 2 AGA needs Fast RAM for sustained 256 colors 50 hz. AGA's original object manipulator intent was the $20 DSP3210. Alice's Blitter is to service legacy Amiga OCS software. Quote:
Officially, Commodore has no optimized Alice Blitter assist C2P software for the larger A1200 install base. Commodore's solution for Amiga's "packed pixels" problem is CD32's Akiko which locked out the larger install base A1200. Mainstream game studios couldn't be bothered with Amiga's packed pixel problem e.g. EA's uncompleted Magic Carpet AGA. Many fast 386DX with 3 to 4 MB 2.5/3D games weren't ported for the Amiga AGA. Dread has Sega Mega Drive's line draw tricks which allowed Wolfenstein 3D Mega Drive port. Dread had optimized Blitter assist C2P that works on 4-bit planes. Nintendo has strong 1st party game programmers to solve SNES's chicken vs egg problem. For 2.5D and 3D, Nintendo didn't avoid DSP and SuperFX add-ons methods. Quote:
CD32 has a lower asking retail price. David Pleasance warns against CD32's 1993 release that would reduce the "healthy profit margin" of A1200's potential sales. Commodore gave away the mid-priced "new 32-bit 2.5/3D gaming experience" segment to the gaming PC. There are three paths for Commodore: 1. Hire demo scene experienced programmers as part of their 1st party games studio team. Figure out optimized Alice Blitter assist C2P software as part of the official SDK. The goal is to improve visual effects quality consistency across multiple Amiga games instead of "reinventing the wheel" R&D cycle. 2. Upgrade the object manipulator with $20 DSP3210. Similar to DSP-1/SuperFX addon tactics. Nintendo executed both paths. 3. Counter mid-priced "new 32-bit 2.5/3D gaming experience" gaming PCs i.e. official 68EC020-25 or 68EC020-28 equipped A1200. Must counter rising AMD's 386DX-40 price disruptor. Agnus has line draw and fill acceleration for the polygon line draw and polygon fill workload. This is used for Amiga's F-29 Retaliator. The Amiga doesn't have 3DO's texture mapper and geometry matrix acceleration. Last edited by hammer; 03 May 2024 at 06:06. |
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03 May 2024, 04:43 | #3995 | |||
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Microsoft created its DirectX team during Windows 3.1's WinG development and the WinDoom port was the game-centric retargetable graphics exercise. Microsoft ported Doom again for DirectDraw and it released as Doom 95. Microsoft was already concerned about the Japanese dominance in the home gaming market. Microsoft made sure Windows 95 is game retargetable graphics capable and Doom ports was the use case test. Quote:
Psy-Q Software Development Kit is PC-based i.e. a blue parallel dongle and a SCSI ISA interface (yellow) card for the comms link to the Playstation 1. Psy-Q was originally designed for Windows 3.1, with Sony (Psygnosis) updating Psy-Q along the way to be more compatible with Windows 95 and 98. Sony learns its game console craft from Nintendo and the failed Beta Max experience. Sony's Psygnosis released Psy-Q in 1993. Quote:
PC had PSX game ports. One of my main reasons for the Pentium class gaming PC in 1996 is PSX game ports! You're out of touch. 2. Psy-Q Software Development Kit is PC-based i.e. a blue parallel dongle and a SCSI ISA interface (yellow) card for the comms link to the Playstation 1. 3. https://www.retroreversing.com/offic...nt-kit-(psyq)/ Psy-Q is the official PSX SDK. 4. Sony purchased Psygnosis on 21 May 1993 which is after the disastrous meeting with Commodore CEO. https://web.archive.org/web/20220406.../the-observer/ Clipped From The Observer (UK), "Britain faces game drain." Amiga platform's game ecosystem was effectively dismantled in Amiga's strongest market i.e. the UK. http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahi...ggebrecht.html Lew Eggebrecht identified EA-backed 3DO as a threat, hence pushing for AT&T DSP upgrade for low-end Amigas, but Commodore ran out of money and time. Lew Eggebrecht's business plan was to bring down SGI graphics for normal desktops i.e. NVIDIA/3DFX's business plan. --------- Without PiStorm-Emu68, both my A500 and A1200 would be back in storage instead of participating as near-daily driver desktop computers. A1200 with TF1260 and PCMCIA WiFi wasn't enough for a usable Windows Remote Desktop. The recent Emu68's modern WiFi Pi WPA2 driver improved the RDP experience. Low cost high compute power matters. Last edited by hammer; 03 May 2024 at 05:39. |
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03 May 2024, 05:06 | #3996 | ||
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Interestingly the ECS chipset that Westchester ended up producing does have high-scan rate at 640x480, both in monochrome and 4 colors using a palette trick. It also has 2MB ChipRAM like Ranger, 1024x1024 blits, and extra register bits suggesting the possible use of VRAM. This indicates that they might have cribbed features off Miner's Ranger design. Or perhaps ECS is the Ranger chipset in its final incarnation. Another interesting thing is that one of the objections the Los Gatos team had to the A500 was that they didn't think the PLCC 'fat' Agnus would work because it had too much stuff integrated into it. This suggests that the Ranger chipset was less integrated. It may have had more custom chips, or more discrete logic like the original A1000 chipset did, which would make it even more expensive. Unfortunately whatever it was that Miner handed over to Westchester has been lost. Dave Haynie says he never saw a circuit diagram or any hardware related to it. The only prototype we have of the Ranger computer has nothing resembling the Ranger chipset Miner spoke of. |
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03 May 2024, 05:34 | #3997 | |
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It is if you don't have a PC.
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But if you had an Amiga you didn't need any of that. I was a CD32 developer and all I had was an A1200 with Hisoft Devpac and Deluxe Paint. I didn't need to spend ages swotting up on a new hardware platform because I already knew 90% of it, and I had an extensive library of code developed over several years. Any delay in release of AGA titles was not due to lack of support from Commodore. The main reason was the same as for other platforms - it takes time to develop a good game regardless. Many developers were already working on A500 games and wouldn't start on new projects until they finished what they were working on. The advantage of the A1200 over a radically different design was that while waiting for AGA titles to be released you could enjoy playing A500 games, often with smoother operation and other benefits. The hard drive was another good addition, making multi-disk games more enjoyable due to faster loading and no disk swapping. If you already had an A500 the A1200 could still be a good purchase, since it was cheap and most of your existing stuff could be used with it. |
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03 May 2024, 05:51 | #3998 |
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03 May 2024, 06:09 | #3999 | |
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What, page 200 an no celebrations? You guys are no fun
Let's remedy that with a happy face. So, yeah, there was a point where I thought this thread beyond ridiculous, but since then I learned to appreciate it a bit more. I like to talk about old machines, and if the only way to scratch that itch is to relive the same argument loop over and over and over, then so be it! Long may it live and here's to another 200 pages. Now that's out of the way, let's get back to business Quote:
- "two Mahjong games, a 'puzzle drama' based on a 1985 arcade game, a baseball simulation game previously released on the SNES, a slot machine gambling game" - so a bunch of genres which are hugely popular in Japan, Sony's native country and the first to launch PS at. The sheer insanity of it, what were they thinking? -"a couple of 2D shmups originally released in 1988 on MSX and 1990 on NES, a collection of adventure games previously released in 1993 for the PC-98" - god forbid, re-releasing old popular games with new gfx? This would never pass on A1200/CD32. -"and a 2D fighting game." - another genre totally hated in JP and worldwide -"an fps with Wolfenstein 3D style graphics" - aaaaand another one -Moto Toon Grand Prix - this didn't get a "review", but while it was indeed rushed and rather poor, Sony supported the devs, who made a brilliant sequel and after that Gran Turismo -"a pretty poor looking dungeon game" - ie supremely popular RPG, which has spawned numerous sequels and eventually turned into Dark Souls franchise But, ok, even if these games were really "shovelware" it wouldn't matter much, since on launch you only need one killer app. Just one. And Ridge Racer certainly was that one game, and did amuse millions of people for far longer than "three minutes". Same also goes for NA and EU launches, which conveniently went unmentioned and which had toshinden and Wipeout along Ridge Racer. And that one killer app at launch is more than what A1200 & CD32 managed during their entire life spans. |
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03 May 2024, 06:13 | #4000 |
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