Apollo Maggie 3D Chip - Preview Demo

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Business projects on Amiga hardware today, stay serious.

Sadly Hyperion is making a business out of selling upgrades to ancient versions of AmigaOS - it is sad, I know, but nevertheless true.

And the whole Vampire/Apollo thing is also a business ...

Running emulators on a machine and coding on it, are two different things.

But on this page the emulators itself and their code is up to discussion as well.

This has nothing to do with the point in question.

You made that point, when you claimed: "This whole site is about said outdated architecture..."
Well: it is not, as I demonstrated.

Those all kinds of platforms are still outdated. Anyway, Thomas's point isn't about gaming...

Still this site is not just about one single architecture or one single ISA.

These kind of subjects you both are discussing here are not generally OT on this site ... but they are probably in this specific thread.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Promilus

And that kind of attitude (along with who actually hold rights for it) was an obstacle to use fairly cheap and powerful back then V4e Coldfire processor in Amiga or move on with PPC.

That kind of attitude is what has bringed the Amiga its best titles, constantly pushing the limits.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Exactly, you have to know (& remember) what it represents. For all you care it can be fixed point (which doesn't have native implementation in 68k and any other processor I know except some TI DSP) and you have to know it.

Of course i know what it represents. How can you possibly code if you don't know what things are ??

Originally Posted by Promilus

No, compiler is just to translate from high level language (which holds that portability and abstraction) to machine language and while doing so optimize some things. And it increasingly does exactly that. Once good AI will be implemented to compilers you can say bye bye to even hand tuning. And there's already work on that.
And HLL isn't only about abstraction layer and portability. It's also about efficiency, convenience etc.

HLL is certainly not about efficiency. They've been invented to circumvent the poor ML language first processors had.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Sadly Hyperion is making a business out of selling upgrades to ancient versions of AmigaOS - it is sad, I know, but nevertheless true.

And the whole Vampire/Apollo thing is also a business ...

This has nothing to do with business software.

Originally Posted by Gorf

But on this page the emulators itself and their code is up to discussion as well.

No way. Emulator internal code isn't discussed here.

Originally Posted by Gorf

You made that point, when you claimed: "This whole site is about said outdated architecture..."
Well: it is not, as I demonstrated.

You didn't demonstrate anything.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Still this site is not just about one single architecture or one single ISA.

But this thread is.

Originally Posted by Gorf

These kind of subjects you both are discussing here are not generally OT on this site ... but they are probably in this specific thread.

Yes they are OT here. Now who will show the example and just stop that ?

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by meynaf

This has nothing to do with business software.

So operating systems are not business software?
Bill Gates would strongly disagree.

But it is not like new versions of "Final Writer" would not be discussed here.

No way. Emulator internal code isn't discussed here.

Wrong again - e.g.:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=90316
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...light=emulator

You didn't demonstrate anything.

Yes I did - here:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=158

So please stop making false claims about me!

But this thread is.

Please read the title of this thread and the first post.
This thread is not about the 68k ISA or any other CPU, nor about coding such CPUs.

[Promilus]

That kind of attitude is what has bringed the Amiga its best titles

Those titles rarely had anything to do with OS and most were released on either stock Amiga or slightly upgraded. And we're talking about something past 060 here where asm actually wasn't language of choice. Which you seems to disagree just because you love (68k) asm just as much as amiga itself and those 2 are 1 in your eyes.

HLL is certainly not about efficiency

Well then write OpenRA in asm alone and when you finish we'll come back to that specific topic.

They've been invented to circumvent the poor ML language first processors had

What they were invented for and how, when and why were used henceforth are 2 different things. Most languages of that early computing era were created just because cost of writing new software for any new machine (with different architecture) was sky high. Fortran was created for computational tasks and became so good it still remains in use, marginally but still. Cobol was for business-oriented tasks and again great success. There was also ALGOL along the way and few other less popular (and one dominant, but not because of number of applications made in it but rather platforms using it as standard ... well system, yes, that's BASIC).

[phx]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Software development is not OT. You may not care about how to do it, though, but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Nobody is wasting time with assembler today. Rarely ever.

Sigh...

You can be sure that many Amiga coders do professional software development or work on large open source projects with modern tools. But is it so hard to understand that we choose to program the Amiga hardware directly in assembler in our scarce free time, because it is fun?

This is not the forum for professional software development.

Originally Posted by Promilus

And we're talking about something past 060 here where asm actually wasn't language of choice.

What was this thread about? I forgot.
Ah... something Apollo related? At least I got the impression that the Apollo team encourages assembler and direct hardware programming with their products. Strange...

[Locutus]

This discussion feels like 1960's arguments over ALGOL58, brilliant!

[Promilus]

@phx

But is it so hard to understand that we choose to program the Amiga hardware directly in assembler in our scarce free time, because it is fun?

No one argue about that. There's someone arguing about how he can do everything in ASM and it will be all better and HLL is for lazy ppl who don't understand asm ...

At least I got the impression that the Apollo team encourages assembler and direct hardware programming with their products. Strange

And here I thought their OS came with asm dev tools but also Basic and C ... please remind me how much asm is in Diablo port and Sonic?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Gorf

So operating systems are not business software?
Bill Gates would strongly disagree.

He sure would.

Originally Posted by Gorf

But it is not like new versions of "Final Writer" would not be discussed here.

This is not business software either. Business software is software made for some customer's business, like websites for selling things.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Wrong again - e.g.:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=90316
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...light=emulator

That doesn't go very far, and it's not for emulators we currently use. Where's the discussion about winuae's internals already ?
This site is for Amiga and related things. If it's about coding, it's mainly about coding for the Amiga, not coding for other platforms.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Yes I did - here:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=158

So please stop making false claims about me!

This post is not a demonstration. If it was supposed to be one, sorry, but it's not convincing.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Please read the title of this thread and the first post.
This thread is not about the 68k ISA or any other CPU, nor about coding such CPUs.

This thead is about Apollo, which IS 68k - not PPC, x86 or arm. So if 68k coding is OT here, other cpus are even more of it.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Those titles rarely had anything to do with OS and most were released on either stock Amiga or slightly upgraded. And we're talking about something past 060 here where asm actually wasn't language of choice. Which you seems to disagree just because you love (68k) asm just as much as amiga itself and those 2 are 1 in your eyes.

At least they've shown what the Amiga can do. C wouldn't have been able to.
It seems anyway that coders didn't really rush to use any other cpu family.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well then write OpenRA in asm alone and when you finish we'll come back to that specific topic.

Pay me $50,000 and I will. I don't work for free on projects that don't interest me (and i'm certainly not at your command !).

Originally Posted by Promilus

What they were invented for and how, when and why were used henceforth are 2 different things. Most languages of that early computing era were created just because cost of writing new software for any new machine (with different architecture) was sky high. Fortran was created for computational tasks and became so good it still remains in use, marginally but still. Cobol was for business-oriented tasks and again great success. There was also ALGOL along the way and few other less popular (and one dominant, but not because of number of applications made in it but rather platforms using it as standard ... well system, yes, that's BASIC).

The point is, they've been created to ease programming - not for performance issues (which actually came because of them).
That there has been so much research on optimizing them only comes from the fact they are so poor performance wise. So yes, today the situation is better, but not ideal.

Originally Posted by Promilus

There's someone arguing about how he can do everything in ASM and it will be all better and HLL is for lazy ppl who don't understand asm ...

If i can do it in another language, i also can do it in ASM (and better). What appears to be the problem with that ? I'm not asking everyone to do the same !

[grond]

Originally Posted by meynaf

The point is, they've [high level languages] been created to ease programming - not for performance issues (which actually came because of them).

Finally one interesting point. You are obviously opposed to using high level languages for ease of programming because it wastes performance. Can we conclude that you would rather have an ISA that is designed to be easily programmable in ASM than one that is designed to give as much performance as possible? Do you think that these two CPU development goals may conflict with each other or do you believe they are the same?

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by grond

Finally one interesting point. You are obviously opposed to using high level languages for ease of programming because it wastes performance.

Opposed, not strictly speaking.
In addition, i like asm not only because it allows writing faster and shorter code, but also for the coding freedom it procures. Of course, this is only valid for 68k currently.

Originally Posted by grond

Can we conclude that you would rather have an ISA that is designed to be easily programmable in ASM than one that is designed to give as much performance as possible?

I'd rather have an ISA that is designed to be easily programmable in ASM. Sure thing. Yet there is a performance gain in that mere fact. Didn't Gunnar himself say a PPC would have lower performance than current 68k in same FPGA he is using ?
Oh, and a good ISA implies a cleaner architecture, which in turn might give an advantage on security and reliability.

Originally Posted by grond

Do you think that these two CPU development goals may conflict with each other or do you believe they are the same?

It seems they kinda do conflict currently, but they ought not. There is some nice balance to have, but i don't think both goals are incompatible.
Shortcuts taken for the sake of performance can have a nice effect *right now* but as soon as new generation comes they can come in the way and end up being dirty (and, more important, useless) legacy. Typical case, branch delay slots when pipeline size changes.
Having a nice ISA, though, gives a CPU that can do the same work with fewer instructions. And this does not change when next generation comes. Some features may end up problematic of course but they are not useless (if they were properly designed at first place).

So now, what can we do with that ?

[Promilus]

Originally Posted by meynaf

At least they've shown what the Amiga can do. C wouldn't have been able to.
It seems anyway that coders didn't really rush to use any other cpu family.

There's no shortage of x86 demos on their demoscene. Or 6502, or Z80.
And because asm is so great KK does Dread in C using VS Code and 68k cross compiler with WinUAE as test environment. At least that's what I saw during his presentations on YT. And he does on STOCK A500 something previously unimaginable (whether in asm or not!) So I guess coding in asm isn't a prerequisite to do something impressive on Amiga.

Pay me $50,000 and I will. I don't work for free on projects that don't interest me (and i'm certainly not at your command !).

Ok ... so you want me to pay you for something - as you admitted - isn't your job but a hobby, done for fun, also that's the very thing you might be able to do to prove your point ... Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

The point is, they've been created to ease programming - not for performance issues (which actually came because of them).

I never stated that HLL were created to produce code which is faster than asm hand optimized code. It is made to make SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT faster, easier and more efficient. And asm doesn't fit into that. That's why once processors became fast enough asm was thrown into a pit where it is still used only to verify what compiler outputs or work around some time-sensitive subroutines.

That there has been so much research on optimizing them only comes from the fact they are so poor performance wise. So yes, today the situation is better, but not ideal.

Yes, but in a few lines of code you can have application with GUI, using system clock, file operations, string operations, network access etc. etc. There's nothing asm coder can do to make those things any easier for him.

If i can do it in another language, i also can do it in ASM (and better). What appears to be the problem with that ? I'm not asking everyone to do the same !

I don't have a problem with you using 68k asm for everything you do on amiga. It becomes a problem when you insist it's the best way to develop everything (on Amiga or whatever) because it produces smallest code and fastest code.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Promilus

There's no shortage of x86 demos on their demoscene. Or 6502, or Z80.

What does that change ?

Originally Posted by Promilus

And because asm is so great KK does Dread in C using VS Code and 68k cross compiler with WinUAE as test environment. At least that's what I saw during his presentations on YT. And he does on STOCK A500 something previously unimaginable (whether in asm or not!) So I guess coding in asm isn't a prerequisite to do something impressive on Amiga.

You can always do something impressive by using clever algorithms, but it will still be limited.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Ok ... so you want me to pay you for something - as you admitted - isn't your job but a hobby, done for fun, also that's the very thing you might be able to do to prove your point ... Yeah. Makes perfect sense.

Oh what a show of bad faith.
If it's your hobby to f.e. repair cars, you always accept repairing everyone's for free ? Just because you do some home gardening you now must feed anyone asking for it ? Come on, stay real.

Originally Posted by Promilus

I never stated that HLL were created to produce code which is faster than asm hand optimized code. It is made to make SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT faster, easier and more efficient. And asm doesn't fit into that. That's why once processors became fast enough asm was thrown into a pit where it is still used only to verify what compiler outputs or work around some time-sensitive subroutines.

Thrown into a pit, huh ? March 2022 TIOBE index ranks it 9th.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Yes, but in a few lines of code you can have application with GUI, using system clock, file operations, string operations, network access etc. etc.

A few lines of code ? What a joke. Take some random project on the web and cry.

Originally Posted by Promilus

There's nothing asm coder can do to make those things any easier for him.

Of course yes asm coder can make these things easy.
I can open intuition screen in just 4 lines of code. Loading a file in memory is for me just 2 lines.
You can use a library in any language, even create your own.

Originally Posted by Promilus

I don't have a problem with you using 68k asm for everything you do on amiga. It becomes a problem when you insist it's the best way to develop everything (on Amiga or whatever) because it produces smallest code and fastest code.

Yes it produces smallest code and fastest code. That's a hard fact. You'll have to live with this.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by meynaf

This is not business software either. Business software is software made for some customer's business, like websites for selling things.

Maybe you should not come up with your very own and unique definition of things.
According to Wikipedia:

Business software (or a business application) is any software or set of computer programs used by business users to perform various business functions. These business applications are used to increase productivity, to measure productivity, and to perform other business functions accurately.
....
The small business market generally consists of home accounting software, and office suites such as LibreOffice, Microsoft Office or Google Workspace...

Potential ports of OpenOffice/LibreOffice have been discussed here, as well as FinalWriter, FinalCalc, MuiBase and so on...

That doesn't go very far, and it's not for emulators we currently use.
Where's the discussion about winuae's internals already ?

Stop moving the goalpost. I wrote emulators, and as I proved internals of emulators are being discussed here.

This site is for Amiga and related things.
If it's about coding, it's mainly about coding for the Amiga, not coding for other platforms.

Sure.
But there is even a dedicated section for HLL
Coders. Language
Write programs for Classic Amigas in high-level languages - C/C++, AMOS, Basic...

There is a section for "Amix" the unix software, and a section for "Apps"...

So it is not only games, it is not only 68k, it is not only Assembly, it also can be serious/commercial/business-oriented hardware independent stuff.

This post is not a demonstration. If it was supposed to be one, sorry, but it's not convincing.

You made a false claim and via example I disproved your statement.

This site is about more than "said outdated architecture..." (which was referring to 68k).
I showed you some sections on this page, were other more modern systems are relevant.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

You are clearly proven wrong in this point, it does not any longer matter if you find it "convincing".

This thead is about Apollo, which IS 68k - not PPC, x86 or arm. So if 68k coding is OT here, other cpus are even more of it.

Sure: as I said earlier, your discussion about coding habits is OT in the thread, as long as it not involves this new "Maggie".
Thanks for recognizing.

[Promilus]

Thrown into a pit, huh ? March 2022 TIOBE index ranks it 9th.

And that's still rating 3x smaller than Visual Basic. Who is still developing in VB anyway? Also this index doesn't tell anything about number of applications made in that particular language.

If it's your hobby to f.e. repair cars, you always accept repairing everyone's for free ?

You were the one saying asm is applicable to big projects as well.

A few lines of code ? What a joke. Take some random project on the web and cry.

Well then make a project in asm with such complexity and show off how many lines of code you'd need to write to make it functionally the same and how much time it would take to develop. That's what everyone is telling to you and you just ignore that simple fact just because YOU like to code in asm.

You can use a library in any language, even create your own.

And you'll have to rewrite it from the base to use all new AC68080 features to get it working. Good luck. And you'll have to rewrite all of it to get it working on e.g. PPC. That's why it is not ideal for development. It's only good for small projects on single platform. And we do not limit ourselves to that like you do.

Yes it produces smallest code and fastest code. That's a hard fact. You'll have to live with this.

Yes, yes, I had no problem with that before your rant about compilers, x86 and hll. But you seemed to have a problem with anyone talking how more efficient development is using HLL just because it saves YOUR TIME as a developer.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Maybe you should not come up with your very own and unique definition of things.
According to Wikipedia:

Business software (or a business application) is any software or set of computer programs used by business users to perform various business functions. These business applications are used to increase productivity, to measure productivity, and to perform other business functions accurately.
....
The small business market generally consists of home accounting software, and office suites such as LibreOffice, Microsoft Office or Google Workspace...

Potential ports of OpenOffice/LibreOffice have been discussed here, as well as FinalWriter, FinalCalc, MuiBase and so on...

Then it was just a language barrier. We weren't speaking about the same things. This can happen. I just badly worded it (why aren't we just discussing in French ?).
My point was about what you code for professionnal stuff, at your office, not what you use at your home. All those boring things programmers do for a living.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Stop moving the goalpost. I wrote emulators, and as I proved internals of emulators are being discussed here.

Read again the two threads you linked yourself, it is all about the Amiga part, not about how things are done on the host. Where are emulator code excerpts in these threads already ?

Originally Posted by Gorf

Sure.
But there is even a dedicated section for HLL
Coders. Language
Write programs for Classic Amigas in high-level languages - C/C++, AMOS, Basic...

There is a section for "Amix" the unix software, and a section for "Apps"...

So it is not only games, it is not only 68k, it is not only Assembly, it also can be serious/commercial/business-oriented hardware independent stuff.

And ? There is even an OT section where anything can be discussed.
Does not change what this whole site is mainly for.

Originally Posted by Gorf

You made a false claim and via example I disproved your statement.

This site is about more than "said outdated architecture..." (which was referring to 68k).
I showed you some sections on this page, were other more modern systems are relevant.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

You are clearly proven wrong in this point, it does not any longer matter if you find it "convincing".

This whole site is called "english amiga board". That sometimes a few other things are discussed won't change it. So no you have not proven anything.
Well, it is not like successfully proving that would have bringed us anywhere either.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Sure: as I said earlier, your discussion about coding habits is OT in the thread, as long as it not involves this new "Maggie".
Thanks for recognizing.

Yes it is OT, but you seem to be happily continuing it.
And it's not MY discussion about coding habits. Read back to see who bringed the subject.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Promilus

And that's still rating 3x smaller than Visual Basic. Who is still developing in VB anyway?

Right, who is still developing in SQL, Delphi, Swift, Ruby, or Lua, which are all even less.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Also this index doesn't tell anything about number of applications made in that particular language.

That doesn't tell. In both ways. Still, doesn't count - asm isn't into a pit, it's still there.

Originally Posted by Promilus

You were the one saying asm is applicable to big projects as well.

That it is applicable, does not mean i'll do it just because you ask.

Originally Posted by Promilus

Well then make a project in asm with such complexity and show off how many lines of code you'd need to write to make it functionally the same and how much time it would take to develop. That's what everyone is telling to you and you just ignore that simple fact just because YOU like to code in asm.

All that just to prove you wrong ? With a big risk you don't actually admit it even facing the proof ? Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time.

Originally Posted by Promilus

And you'll have to rewrite it from the base to use all new AC68080 features to get it working. Good luck. And you'll have to rewrite all of it to get it working on e.g. PPC. That's why it is not ideal for development. It's only good for small projects on single platform. And we do not limit ourselves to that like you do.

You can perfectly use libraries written in another language

Originally Posted by Promilus

Yes, yes, I had no problem with that before your rant about compilers, x86 and hll. But you seemed to have a problem with anyone talking how more efficient development is using HLL just because it saves YOUR TIME as a developer.

Perhaps it is because HLL isn't that much more efficient, if at all.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Read again the two threads you linked yourself, it is all about the Amiga part, not about how things are done on the host. Where are emulator code excerpts in these threads already ?

In the first thread I linked.
E.g. here:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=169

followed by many references to the code on GitHub.

And ? There is even an OT section where anything can be discussed.
Does not change what this whole site is mainly for.

mainly != only

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Gorf

In the first thread I linked.
E.g. here:
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=169

followed by many references to the code on GitHub.

So what do we have here ? People who are talking about what to do, not how to do it. IOW, about algorithmic rather than implementation. They are not looking at the generated asm. It's more "quick pseudocodeish example".
The physical machine on which that code must run does not appear to matter that much, if at all. So how the heck can then one pretend the talks are about these platforms ?

Originally Posted by Gorf

mainly != only

Exactly !
But, did i write "only" anywhere ?

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by meynaf

So what do we have here ? People who are talking about what to do, not how to do it. IOW, about algorithmic rather than implementation.

So? That is exactly what I claimed:
the inner workings of the emulator are discussed.

They are not looking at the generated asm.

You are moving the goalpost again.
That was not the claim, nor is it relevant to my point.

The physical machine on which that code must run does not appear to matter that much, if at all. So how the heck can then one pretend the talks are about these platforms ?

Because that's what the mentioned thread is about:

"I decided a fun little project would be to build a 68k emulator and then run it on a Raspberrypi without a host operating system, giving the 68k access to the whole Raspi's address space... essentially making a 68k raspberrypi!"

Exactly !
But, did i write "only" anywhere ?

Maybe it is the language barrier again, but you made it sound exclusive, when you wrote:

This whole site is about said outdated architecture...

As I showed you: not the whole site is about 68K architecture.
Other architectures, systems and topics are discussed as well.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Gorf

So? That is exactly what I claimed:
the inner workings of the emulator are discussed.

You are moving the goalpost again.
That was not the claim, nor is it relevant to my point.

So ok if you want, the inner workings of the emulator are discussed. And ? What does it change at the end ? What has bringed us there at first place already ?

Originally Posted by Gorf

Because that's what the mentioned thread is about:

"I decided a fun little project would be to build a 68k emulator and then run it on a Raspberrypi without a host operating system, giving the 68k access to the whole Raspi's address space... essentially making a 68k raspberrypi!"

So for you this is enough to say this site is about Raspi ?

Originally Posted by Gorf

Maybe it is the language barrier again, but you made it sound exclusive, when you wrote:
(...)
As I showed you: not the whole site is about 68K architecture.
Other architectures, systems and topics are discussed as well.

Ok, i missed a "nearly". All that for such a tiny detail...