Games supporting 2 (ie. independent) fire buttons?

[Shatterhand]

Tried to play APidya WHDLoad version with my weirdo Master System 6 button controller from Tec Toy,

Worked with just 1 button again, no matter what options I selected.

Like I said, I have no idea of what's the pinout on that controller. The dpad on it is also awful.

I'll still try to remove pins 5 and 7 from one of my mega-drive pads to see if it works.

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Shatterhand

I'll still try to remove pins 5 and 7 from one of my mega-drive pads to see if it works.

The Megadrive pads need pin 5 of the pad connected for powering the multiplexer chip. If it works straight off, it's pin 5 that's powering it but that's not ideal, so it should really be connected to pin 7 on the Amiga.

Actually, thinking about that now, the fact that MD pads work without modification in 2-button mode sort of proves that pin 5 is held high by default, since it's this current sourcing that powers the multiplexer - otherwise it just wouldn't work...

[Shatterhand]

I may be wrong, without the multiplexer, wouldn't the pad work as a master system controller, with B and Start being button 1 and A and C being button 2?

Isn't the multiplexer just used to detect if it's either A or C (and B or start) being pressed ?

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Shatterhand

I may be wrong, without the multiplexer, wouldn't the pad work as a master system controller, with B and Start being button 1 and A and C being button 2?

Isn't the multiplexer just used to detect if it's either A or C (and B or start) being pressed ?

You are not wrong, you are a right kitten.
But your hypothesis is indeed wrong.

Cf my post about protocols on the previous page to understand why.
The additional buttons are obtained only by following a protocol.

If pin 7 is set to 0v, the protocol is not respected and although I am not sure what the controller's reaction will be I am certain this won't make the additional buttons accessible.

Just invert pin 5 and 7, that should just work as normal. And when WHDLoad implements the protocol you will have access to all three or six buttons.

Erratum/Update: in the case of a regular 3 button pad you are possibly right. It indeed uses a real multiplexer and does not care for the protocol. But it will need power to the controller for the multiplexer to work.
However you would have to make sure to set the pin to 0v instead of letting it floating unconnected since it is not guaranteed that an unconnected pin will be set to 0v.
This might also work with 6 button controllers but only by pressing the mode button when powering the computer since this signifies the controller to behave like a three button one, however this is not guaranteed: you will have to try.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Is there a web site with the schematics?

No, as far as I know I have the only working unit of this, it was very much a personal project of robinsonb5 which he was thinking of maybe making it public at some point.

Seems like some games detect and work with the pad in different ways, and the issues were related to timing.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Akira

No, as far as I know I have the only working unit of this, it was very much a personal project of robinsonb5 which he was thinking of maybe making it public at some point.

Seems like some games detect and work with the pad in different ways, and the issues were related to timing.

Ah, I see. It would not be surprising that some games accessed the CD32 pad in an unusual/illegal way which would end up working with the original pad but would be a pain to support by the adapter.

This is why console games certification can sometimes be a good thing.

[Daedalus]

Yep, as ReadOnlyCat is saying, the multiplexer needs power otherwise all the outputs are low. The D pad left/right and the buttons all run through it and aren't connected directly to the Amiga, so the Amiga is instead reading the outputs of the chip... Which will only be there when it's powered.

[Shatterhand]

Oh I see.. it makes sense.

Man, not being able to use 2 buttons on WHDLoad when I used to play them on my old Amiga from floppies it's being a pain in the ass. Went to play Bubba'n'Stix today, again, no support from 2 button.

Funny thing is that it works with R-Type 2... it's the only game that I tried and it worked.

[Amiga1992]

Get a Gotek and be done with it. WHDLoad really has a ton of problems. I pretty much gave up on it, games always crash and shit. Feels like installs tend to work many times ony in ne popular card (like a Blizzard or ACA) and not much else.

And its's the worst thing to do on a setup like your current one. Too limited by many factors.

[Shatterhand]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

You are not wrong, you are a right kitten.
But your hypothesis is indeed wrong.

Cf my post about protocols on the previous page to understand why.
The additional buttons are obtained only by following a protocol.

If pin 7 is set to 0v, the protocol is not respected and although I am not sure what the controller's reaction will be I am certain this won't make the additional buttons accessible.

Just invert pin 5 and 7, that should just work as normal. And when WHDLoad implements the protocol you will have access to all three or six buttons.

Erratum/Update: in the case of a regular 3 button pad you are possibly right. It indeed uses a real multiplexer and does not care for the protocol. But it will need power to the controller for the multiplexer to work.
However you would have to make sure to set the pin to 0v instead of letting it floating unconnected since it is not guaranteed that an unconnected pin will be set to 0v.
This might also work with 6 button controllers but only by pressing the mode button when powering the computer since this signifies the controller to behave like a three button one, however this is not guaranteed: you will have to try.

I had a 6 button controller here with just cable 5 broken in middle at some point.

The 6 button controller uses the multiplexer for more stuff, the extra buttons are sent together with dpad directions... without the +5v on those controllers, AXYZ work as the dpad, and the dpad does not work at all.

[SunChild]

OP list updated with latest contributions!
(Also added a disclaimer to clarify a few points raised by the latest discussions here...)

Once again, a big thank you to all of you who contributed game names! Don't stop just yet (unless there's indeed nothing left to add?)...

A special thanks note to the few users (like Shatterhand, ReadOnlyCat and Daedalus) who contribute technical details -- may always prove useful for guys like me looking to customize their controllers.

Cheers and let's keep this list rolling!

[Retro1234]

with CD32Load you can now assign keyboard keys to the joypad and it works with alot of WHDload games, and also has virtual mouse.

[Shatterhand]

Just for curiosity..

I played both Kick Off 3 and Kick Off 3 European Challenge those days, and now I checked the manual just to be sure.

When Kick Off 3 was released, reviewers complained a lot about the fact the game required a 2 button joystick to be played (I just thought it was damn time someone made a game REQUIRING such a controller, shame about the game being so awful).


Then when they made the update Kick Off 3: European Challenge, they added an option for the game to be played with a single button joystick.

Except you lose a shitload of moves when playing like this.

Really, now checking the manual, even with a 2 button joystick you still lose at least one move (Even with a CD32 controller, there are still stuff made by pressing 2 buttons at the same time), though you can really play the game without them. Now with just 1 button you miss the button that makes your player run, and also one of the most effective shoots.

Those games were released for the SNES too... and while even the SNES versions do suck, it's clear the game was made with a more modern mindset that goes beyond the "Tap to pass, hold to shoot".

So.... Kick Off 3 European Challenge is nearly unplayable with just 1 button controller... not being able to run really makes the game a lot harder than it should be.

Now, those games are really bad and I don't think anyone would care. It's really a shame.. this was never going to be Kick Off 2, but it could really had been a pretty good game with a more modern mindset than most amiga footy games (And then we only have Total Football for this)

[SquawkBox]

great thread guys. Keep up the good work!

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SunChild

So here we go people, if you remember any particular game(s) supporting 2 or more fire buttons (obviously this doesn't include _exclusive_ CD32 games!! EDIT: well nevermind, whenever those are mentioned, I'll add them to the list anyway...), please share your valuable knowledge about it below...

Alien Bash 2
Astro Marine Corps (WHDLoad)
Chaos Engine CD32
D/Generation CD32
Exile AGA (CD32 joypad support)
Ghost 'n' Goblins (WHDLoad)
Marvin's Marvellous Adventure (_requires_ CD32 joypad)
Mean Arenas CD32 (2 independent buttons for 4-way blast/bomb)
Ninja Mission (Arcadia)
Tiger's Bane (CD32 joypad support)
Top Gear 2 CD32
Sarcophaser (WHDLoad)
Stormlord (WHDLoad)
Superfrog CD32 (2nd button for jump)
Super Obliteration
Super Stardust CD32
Super Street Fighter II Turbo (CD32 joypad support)
SVIW (WHDLoad, jump for buggy)
Toki (WHDLoad)
Wing Commander CD32
Whizz
Worms: Director's Cut (CD32 joypad support)
X-Out
Z-Out

About Soccer Kid, jump on button is only with CD32 version, same with Arabian Nights 2nd/3rd is for jump and inventory. Overall CD32 versions has more buttons support, even with ECS/OCS versions (no requirement of AGA).

[PopoCop]

Capital Punishment,
Deluxe Galaga,
Gloom Deluxe,
Spherical Worlds (WHDLoad version),
XP8.

[PopoCop]

I forgot about Payback.

[SunChild]

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

Overall CD32 versions has more buttons support, even with ECS/OCS versions (no requirement of AGA).

Hence my willing to omit them from the list at first, but on thinking twice about it I finally figured why the hell not, eh?


So... Loads of new contributions since yesterday (and good thing I came back too to check sth here!) from Solo Kazuki and PopoCop, thank you guys!!

The OP list's been dutifully updated again, and really starts to lenghthen real nice now too -- makes this thread all the more worthwhile (and here I was feeling a bit dubious about being relevant when I started it -- like, how many of these 2 buttons games must there be on an 80s/90s digital joystick-dominated computer platform like the Amiga, right? Well, quite a few it turns out! Of course most of them being later ones)

Now, a few points ask to be clarified among your substantial contribution Solo Kazuki if you don't mind:
- "Mean Arenas CD32 (2 independent buttons for 4-way blast/bomb)"
I assumed the brackets part meant pushing both buttons simultaneously to achieve blast/bomb, hopefully I didn't misinterpret.
- About the entries marked with "(CD32 joypad support)", I'm left unsure as to the exact meaning, and the difference with games having 2 buttons support on the CD32 only...?
- Finally, I updated the Soccer Kid and Arabian Nights entries according to your remark, but may I ask for a confirmation about that last one: the regular Amiga version uses only 2nd button to switch inventory screen on/off. From what I get of what you wrote ("2nd/3rd is for jump and inventory"), the CD32 version would use 2nd button for JUMP instead, and 3rd button for inventory, in that order, is that correct?


Once again, thanks for adding this many titles to the list...
Cheers!

[Solo Kazuki]

Originally Posted by SunChild

- "Mean Arenas CD32 (2 independent buttons for 4-way blast/bomb)"
I assumed the brackets part meant pushing both buttons simultaneously to achieve blast/bomb, hopefully I didn't misinterpret.

No. You have two different weapons: 4-way blast and bomb. In normal (not CD32) version both weapons are on single fire, without selection which weapon you want use. In CD32 version you have choice which weapon you want use, because they are assigned to different buttons.

Originally Posted by SunChild

- About the entries marked with "(CD32 joypad support)", I'm left unsure as to the exact meaning, and the difference with games having 2 buttons support on the CD32 only...?

You just have option to switch controller to CD32 joypad. It's not CD32 version, just have option to use joypad e.g. on normal A1200 with lowlevel.library or CD32.

Originally Posted by SunChild

- Finally, I updated the Soccer Kid and Arabian Nights entries according to your remark, but may I ask for a confirmation about that last one: the regular Amiga version uses only 2nd button to switch inventory screen on/off. From what I get of what you wrote ("2nd/3rd is for jump and inventory"), the CD32 version would use 2nd button for JUMP instead, and 3rd button for inventory, in that order, is that correct?

You have option to change 2nd jump/3rd inventory or 2nd inventory/3rd jump.
BTW: in both Soccer Kid and Arabian Nights you can still use up as jump.

[Devlin]

Base Jumpers gives you bonus points for pressing the second (not cd32) joystick button a few times, but other than that, it's the only usage of it.

does that count?