68080/68060 discussion, comparisons etc

[lord of time]

Originally Posted by Chucky

FPGA is the way yes. sadly there is no 060 core available yet.

no we have 080 instead which is much better!

[Chucky]

for us who does NOT want that "080" thing. no it is not better.. I want 060. fpga or not. but 060 period.

[lord of time]

how do you figure its not better? spec wise its leaps and bounds better!

[Chucky]

I have described that gazillion times.. it is a closed one-man show. a fpu that calculates like a drunk finn (I am more or less all finnish I can say that ) no MMU just not a true motorola cpu. it is a made up thing that I do not want to support..

in short: not a 060 not even a motorola cpu.. it is a compatible cpu to some extend. but it is as motrorola true as a AMD is intel-true.


so I want a 060 core. not a weird unsupported fork.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Chucky

FPGA is the way yes. sadly there is no 060 core available yet.

Didn't AmigaBill start some GitHub project like a decade ago where there would be some OpenSource PCD design that plugs into a 060 socket, but it would host an FPGA?
Don't think anything at all came out of it, but maybe its time to dust off such ideas ;-)

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Chucky

to be honest. even a solution with a ARM cpu running a JIT 68060 emulation would be awesome.

This is probably in some ways easier to do than a perfect 68060 softcore in FPGA. But then it would be a system on a chip running an OS, running an emulator, no?

Of course, creating an accelerator that host a ARM cpu that emulates 060 in software wouldn't be everyone's CUP of tea either..

Anyway, once you go down that route it becomes something of a dilemma for whoever is creating the emulator.. Do you really need perfect 060 emulation if you could run a e.g. 040 emulator at speeds that correspond to a 200MHz 040...

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by lord of time

how do you figure its not better? spec wise its leaps and bounds better!

And a Ryzen is leaps and bounds better than an 080 spec-wise, not to mention cheaper. But that doesn't matter a jot if that's not what you want.

[aeberbach]

Until a 68060 replacement is cycle-accurate and replaces an actual 68060 in a PGA socket it's not going to be of much interest to me. I just want to run vintage hardware with no incompatibilities and no "enhancements".

It would be best to do all this in a HDL without a soft core but it is an incredibly complex project. Describing the behaviour and timing might be easier in a level above hardware. State of the art 26 years ago is unfortunately still beyond most enthusiasts today.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by aeberbach

Until a 68060 replacement is cycle-accurate and replaces an actual 68060 in a PGA socket it's not going to be of much interest to me. I just want to run vintage hardware with no incompatibilities and no "enhancements".

It would be best to do all this in a HDL without a soft core but it is an incredibly complex project. Describing the behaviour and timing might be easier in a level above hardware. State of the art 26 years ago is unfortunately still beyond most enthusiasts today.

Well, there isn't actually a 060 shortage per se. You can easily call several resellers and check their stock and prices..
Here's a listing:
https://www.digipart.com/part/MC68060RC50
The problem is really the price. You're probably looking at $400-600
But the point here is that if you absolutely must have the real thing, you *can* get it..

What we should hope for is that some Chinese chip cloning company get the idea to use Xray ptychography and "scan" a rev 6 060
With the right equipment its, easy peasy:
https://www.fanaticalfuturist.com/20...culously-easy/
And the recreate the 206-pin ceramical package chip we all love, how hard can it be

[Higgy]

The problem is more what to plug the 060 into!

Terriblefire/Stephen has said his 060 projects are now dead.
Better start saving for Warp/ACA.
Will treasure my 060 CD32. Going to be a rare card now.

[Chucky]

cycleexact is not that important. what is important is that it behaves correct with flags/opcodes etc.. bugs should be there. fpu and mmu behave exact..
but at this level. noone codes so it depends on how cycles behaves

[aeberbach]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Well, there isn't actually a 060 shortage per se.

Well there is no shortage of fakes but I see real ones selling for over 300 Euro, and without waiting around for weeks! I have one rev 6. I'd like to see a replacement FPGA to break the supply-demand cycle and bring prices down.

[lord of time]

Im sorry but I just cant agree with your logic - 68060 chips are so hard to come by and they cost a metric shit ton too - and why the hell is the FPU such a sticking point? the V4 FPU is just about to receive a update during October so is constantly being improved! 68060 was good back in the day but now 68080 is the way to go if you want pure power in your Amiga. It seems to me you have a personal issue with the 080 not just from a technical stand point?

[Chucky]

I do not want a 080.. simply JUST DO NOT WANT IT!. if I want anything newer. I use my ryzen machine. for me it is preservation. and the 080 is for me a pile of stinking crap that I do not want to touch even with tools. (ok I have one .. in my donorcard box) it is not real. it is something made up.. and I absolutly do not want to support Gunnars well too big ego. (even if it came up info that the 080 is actually pretty much a copy and paste if a coldfire core and tg68k.. so not even his code)

yes 060s are harder to get. I haven't been able to buy one for over 1 month since I got my last batch of 10 cpus.. :-/ that's why we need a 060 core. for preseriving it real. no extra shit that is totally uninteresting to support.

[Promilus]

68080 is the way to go if you want pure power in your Amiga

Not really, Ryzen or i5 is a way to go if you want pure power in your amiga. You just set 060 JIT and fastest possible but maintain chipset timings and whoosh ...
I believe you've missed the point. 060 is expensive but "classic" piece of hardware. If you want more power and retain motorola design there is no other choice. If you want 68k compatibility and power then PC and emulation is many times more powerful than AC68080. And hypothetically ARM JIT on ZynQ 666MHz Cortex A9 would probably be a pretty nice as well (and with second core available to offload mp3, mpeg2 decoding etc.) If that's not enough then there's UltraScale with 4x Cortex A53 1.5 GHz and Mali 400 MP2 which in end product might cost around V4SA and beat crap out of it. The reason why there's no such turbo is simple - amiga community doesn't want 68k JIT@ARM in their classic hardware and many doesn't want FPGA based CPU. Which I understand and respect despite having no bad feelings about it myself. And while 060@FPGA (just CPU, no extra features which are hardly useful like 64bits and cause problems to maintain both original 060 and apollo 080 code like AMMX) might be viable option to TF1260 or Warp1260 (which already has powerful enough FPGA to host such softcore) but even then there are ppl which would prefer MC68060 over any softcore, regardless of it's speed. Growing ISA means just one thing - eventually Blizzard 1260 users would be out of the loop, so new software built with AC68080 in mind and using it's features won't work on it or will require seperate build - so ... bigger effort. So sticking to whatever 060 can do but go faster is ok, trying to set new standards which would force users of original hw to eventually lose access to new sw for classic amiga smells fishy.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by Promilus

Not really, Ryzen or i5 is a way to go if you want pure power in your amiga. You just set 060 JIT and fastest possible but maintain chipset timings and whoosh ...
I believe you've missed the point. 060 is expensive but "classic" piece of hardware. If you want more power and retain motorola design there is no other choice. If you want 68k compatibility and power then PC and emulation is many times more powerful than AC68080. And hypothetically ARM JIT on ZynQ 666MHz Cortex A9 would probably be a pretty nice as well (and with second core available to offload mp3, mpeg2 decoding etc.) If that's not enough then there's UltraScale with 4x Cortex A53 1.5 GHz and Mali 400 MP2 which in end product might cost around V4SA and beat crap out of it. The reason why there's no such turbo is simple - amiga community doesn't want 68k JIT@ARM in their classic hardware and many doesn't want FPGA based CPU. Which I understand and respect despite having no bad feelings about it myself. And while 060@FPGA (just CPU, no extra features which are hardly useful like 64bits and cause problems to maintain both original 060 and apollo 080 code like AMMX) might be viable option to TF1260 or Warp1260 (which already has powerful enough FPGA to host such softcore) but even then there are ppl which would prefer MC68060 over any softcore, regardless of it's speed. Growing ISA means just one thing - eventually Blizzard 1260 users would be out of the loop, so new software built with AC68080 in mind and using it's features won't work on it or will require seperate build - so ... bigger effort. So sticking to whatever 060 can do but go faster is ok, trying to set new standards which would force users of original hw to eventually lose access to new sw for classic amiga smells fishy.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter as well.

I implore you, Vampire fans, please understand that it is not the solution for everyone even if it caters to your needs perfectly. Please stop force feeding the Vampire whenever Amiga acceleration is mentioned.

There are many of us who want the fastest possible 68060, either vintage silicon or bug/feature complete reimplementation in FPGA/ASIC. For us, the Vampire is not an interesting product.

[skan]

Originally Posted by Jope

I implore you, Vampire fans, please understand that it is not the solution for everyone even if it caters to your needs perfectly. Please stop force feeding the Vampire whenever Amiga acceleration is mentioned.

There are many of us who want the fastest possible 68060, either vintage silicon or bug/feature complete reimplementation in FPGA/ASIC. For us, the Vampire is not an interesting product.

...And this sums it up for me perfectly as well!

[stevelord]

Assuming there's at least a modicum of good faith here rather than just a thinly veiled attempt to troll EAB, the bottom line is not everyone wants a Vampire. If what you want works for you, well done. If other people don't want that for themselves, let them be. There is no 'best', only what works for peoples use cases. Heck I have an A4000/060, which is my own personal dream machine. Can I play the games I used to play on my A1200 or A500? Not all of them. I use WinUAE for that. That works for me, there's no point in trying to force it on someone else.

[Mr-Z]

On 080 you can finally watch MPEG video on a decent fps, play MP3 and still do something on the system, have RTG as well, lots faster then 060 and cheaper too, dunno what's not to like for me at least.

[Chucky]

RTG have NOTHING to do with the 080!.. I have RTG on my 060 machines aswell, both my Warp and my bigbox. (or well. currenltly I have no bigbox as I haven't built my AA3000+ yet )

it is bearly faster than the 060. stop comparing sysinfo screenshots.
but I do not care.. I watch a MPEG video on a raspberry pi much smoother if that is a thing I want to do. and my Warp plays mp3 without breaking a sweat