16-Bit: Manic Miner, Chuckie Egg, Jet Set Willy II, what were they thinking?

[ZEUSDAZ]

Nobody can deny that these 3 games were (and still are) classics that were played and enjoyed by so many retro gamers back in the day (Chuckie Egg for me) and as we all went up to 16-bit machines we started to ask would some of these classics we used to play be converted over to the Amiga and ST, sadly yes, we couldn't keep our mouths shut, we asked and they came to be, 3 perfect examples of be careful what you wish for because you might just get it


My take on Manic Miner for the Amiga: [ Show youtube player ]


My take on Jet Set Willy II for the Amiga: [ Show youtube player ]


My take on Chuckie Egg for the Amiga: [ Show youtube player ]


Three sad moments in the Amiga and ST's life


I wonder how many are going to verbally abuse me this time

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by ZEUSDAZ

I wonder how many are going to verbally abuse me this time

Not me, it's a dirty job and someone has to do it

[jotd]

Well, when I created 1:1 ports of Pacman, Amidar... people asked me if I could "enhance" the graphics, and I said no for this exact reason: 8 bit games must remain 8 bit. If you adapt them to 16 bit there's something wrong. But in the eighties/nineties, this wasn't the trend: games had to look colorful, had to scroll, with copperbars everywhere...

Manic Miner seems a fair effort, though, with 8-way scroller and all.

But you're right, it's a 8 bit style game, pixel perfect / super frustrating style. Any attempt to "modernize" it is doomed to fail. Maybe look at the 16 bit version of Scramble (Squamble) that looks like shit too...

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by ZEUSDAZ

I wonder how many are going to verbally abuse me this time

I really scratch my head whenever somebody on the internet has no problem with criticizng others, but absolutely can not bear to be criticised themselves. How does that work exactly?


You've "verbally abused" many devs in some of your comments, and I presume the videos too, nevermind the games. And it's usually conducted using crude language, full of cursing and ad hominems.



Now, I don't have a problem with you doing this (even though I think it's pathetic) but the moment you start playing the victim an objecting that people might have different opinion then this is a problem.

[ZEUSDAZ]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

I really scratch my head whenever somebody on the internet has no problem with criticizng others, but absolutely can not bear to be criticised themselves. How does that work exactly?


You've "verbally abused" many devs in some of your comments, and I presume the videos too, nevermind the games. And it's usually conducted using crude language, full of cursing and ad hominems.



Now, I don't have a problem with you doing this (even though I think it's pathetic) but the moment you start playing the victim an objecting that people might have different opinion then this is a problem.

Erm you did notice the laughing face didn't you?! And you know sarcasm yes?!,...because that's what it was hence the laughing face.

In other words me being verbally attacked on internet is water off a ducks back to me, if it bothered me I would constantly be biting back but I don't, I actually find it amusing because not only is it the minority doing it compared to the amount of praises I get for SGT videos,...but I'm being paid for them too So it's all good my end and I'm certainly not going to stop these videos because of just a few who don't like them.

You were obviously intrigued enough to click the feed, your a closet SGT fan

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by ZEUSDAZ

Erm you did notice the laughing face didn't you?! And you know sarcasm yes?!,...because that's what it was hence the laughing face.

Sorry. It is the weirdest emoticon ever for "lol", but apparently that's what it is, so fair enough.

Again, it's absolutely not about me wanting you to stop making these videos or having a problem with people praising them - and even paying for them . Compared to some other ridiculous stuff that's been going on the web since its inception your channel truly is a small fry, and people shilling their utube grift on forums is a new status quo everywhere, so, it's not really a big deal.

Seeing as I commented just a few times in some of your countless threads (and never clicked on a video) hardly makes me "closet fan" but, ok, whatever helps you guys cope with criticism

But the bottom line is, as always, that I reserve the right to comment on some of the bigger narratives that these threads bring out to the fore. Note to mods: it has nothing to do with some non-existent personal disagreements with Galahad or anybody else.

[Adropac2]

I remember being massively disappointed with Manic Miner on the Amiga because the developer clearly had no idea what made the game so monumentally brilliant. An unbelievably amazing game on the 8bits and one I still very much enjoy. Yup basically perfection like no other and the Amiga version was an abomination

The game itself if played purely for how it plays on the Amiga is not broken or anything but it's just such a pointless thing when the original is so perfect. Another thing I notice on the Amiga version is that it doesn't require pixel perfect jumps that sometimes you absolutely must do. I always refer people to MM on the 8bits when describing what actual pixel perfect really meant.

I think all 8 bit versions are really good but I'd give the nod to the C64 version because the control change makes it is less fussy

I'd dearly love to see a real Manic Miner port for the Amiga one day oh and the equally fantastic Jet Set Willy


I enjoyed Chuckie Egg on the Amiga and don't personally judge it so harshly because it is still fundamentally the same unlike Manic Miner and JSW. It looks an unnecessary mess visually initially coming from the clean 8bit look but you do adjust. I think the controls are just as tight and it's a good game still but I can at least understand why it may make some people vomit. I expect a lot of people enjoyed the Amiga version more than they did for MM and JST so yeah I disagree with this one

[alexh]

The Atari ST got a very interesting conversion of Jet Set Willy. Read the developers release notes.

Jet Set Willy for Atari ST (1989)
=========================================
by Paul Taylor <paul.taylor@pragma.co.uk>
and Carl Whitwell

Here it is, the official-but-unreleased Atari ST version of Jet-Set
Willy, developed with the assistance of Software Projects! We spent
a lot of time on it including travelling to Liverpool, but we never
really got much return on our effort.

The program was originally tested on an ST520, so I don't know if it
runs on TTs or anything fancy like that. It requires a colour monitor.

As for screenshots, there is really no need for them - it is 99.9%
impossible to distinguish from the original Spectrum version!

Hope you have fun with it!  There is a teleport facility, but I can't
remember how you access it. 


MAKING THE GAME
---------------

My friend Carl Whitwell and I actually produced the Atari ST version of
JSW for Software Projects. The guy we were working for was Tommy Barton,
who was one of the directors of Software Projects, and the year was
1989. We finished writing the game, which was an absolutely perfect
reproduction of the original ZX Spectrum sound and graphics. If you saw
it, you would think it was the Spectrum.

We also had the opportunity to play the Commodore Amiga version of JSW,
which was not yet finished at that time. Tommy took us through to a
different room with an Amiga in it, and remarked that "Shahid Ahmad is
working from home, but there's a recent copy of it on there."  We ran
it, and it looked like your average Amiga game, full of hardware sprites
with smooth movement and lots of colour shades. I particularly remember
The Forgotten Abbey, as it revealed the flaw in the programmer's
approach: each of the monks looked exactly the same. In our version,
being an exact replica of the original, each monk was a different
colour.  Other screens in the Amiga version just had coloured blocks
instead of proper sprites, 'cos he hadn't finished them yet.

Our Atari ST version was created in two stages. First of all, we
disassembled the original Z80 code and reverse engineered it into C.
Then, we re-coded some of Matthew Smith's graphics and sound routines
for the Atari ST.  We worked using a Sinclair Spectrum with a Zeus
Disassembler and the original JSW program, and an Atari ST 512 with the
Sozobon C compiler.  We had no physical link between the computers - the
disassembled code was listed on the Spectrum screen, and entered into
the Atari by hand!  Each of the screens' data was dumped as hex, and
dictated to a typist who entered it into struct { } statements in the C
program.

By the end of the 1980s, Software Projects felt that Jet Set Willy had
had its day, and decided to cancel both the Amiga and the Atari ST
projects. (However, the Amiga version of Manic Miner, by Shahid Ahmad
who wrote JSW, had been on sale for a few months by this time). Since SP
weren't interested, we gave a copy of our ST version away to someone in
England who wanted a copy for himself. Apparently, he gave copies to
lots of people. This version can be identified in a number of ways. We
altered the authorship message to read "Perfect Conversions, Hamburg",
for example.

We once asked Tommy Barton about Matthew Smith, and whether the mythical
game "Willy Meets the Taxman" had ever existed. He replied that Matthew
had indeed started work on a sequal to JSW called "Willy Meets the
Taxman", and had even shown demos to the staff of Software Projects.
Tommy recalled seeing sequences in which Willy waltzed with Maria the
housekeeper. He said that the graphics were bigger, and not really the
same as JSW or Manic Miner. However, he said that Matthew had lost
interest in the project very quickly, and had left. He no longer knew of
Matthew's whereabouts.

Anyway, there you are I hope you found all that interesting. It was
certainly an interesting period for both of us as programmers.


A FEW WORDS ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME
----------------------------------

FIRST, the JSW game works with the ST joystick.  It should also work
with keys, but I don't remember which ones.

SECOND, pressing the keys 1-5 (or was it F1-F5?) should change the
speed at which the program runs.

THIRD, there are two "hidden" rooms.  These date from 1984 when Carl
and I first got a level editor for the original JSW.  We made two new
rooms, in position 47 and after the last room. These were called "Buried
Treasure" and "Zaphod says: DON'T PANIC!".  When we converted the game,
we sneakily included this rooms!

Sorry to have such vague memories of the controls, the teleporter,
etc... but I haven't played the ST game for six years.


	Paul Taylor

It never got released at the time (1989) BECAUSE it was a 1:1 port.

Originally Posted by Adropac2

I'd dearly love to see a real Manic Miner port for the Amiga one day oh and the equally fantastic Jet Set Willy

It should be practical to convert the Atari ST version. Ask Galahad? Or Meynaf?

Just recently someone has had a go at a new JSW for the PC which is an 8-way scroller rather than a flip-screen and it is how the 16-bit versions should have looked liked.

https://twitter.com/CPL_Games/status...53912848334849

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by alexh

The Atari ST got a very interesting conversion of Jet Set Willy. Read the developers release notes.

Jet Set Willy for Atari ST (1989)
=========================================
by Paul Taylor <paul.taylor@pragma.co.uk>
and Carl Whitwell

Here it is, the official-but-unreleased Atari ST version of Jet-Set
Willy, developed with the assistance of Software Projects! We spent
a lot of time on it including travelling to Liverpool, but we never
really got much return on our effort.

The program was originally tested on an ST520, so I don't know if it
runs on TTs or anything fancy like that. It requires a colour monitor.

As for screenshots, there is really no need for them - it is 99.9%
impossible to distinguish from the original Spectrum version!

Hope you have fun with it!  There is a teleport facility, but I can't
remember how you access it. 


MAKING THE GAME
---------------

My friend Carl Whitwell and I actually produced the Atari ST version of
JSW for Software Projects. The guy we were working for was Tommy Barton,
who was one of the directors of Software Projects, and the year was
1989. We finished writing the game, which was an absolutely perfect
reproduction of the original ZX Spectrum sound and graphics. If you saw
it, you would think it was the Spectrum.

We also had the opportunity to play the Commodore Amiga version of JSW,
which was not yet finished at that time. Tommy took us through to a
different room with an Amiga in it, and remarked that "Shahid Ahmad is
working from home, but there's a recent copy of it on there."  We ran
it, and it looked like your average Amiga game, full of hardware sprites
with smooth movement and lots of colour shades. I particularly remember
The Forgotten Abbey, as it revealed the flaw in the programmer's
approach: each of the monks looked exactly the same. In our version,
being an exact replica of the original, each monk was a different
colour.  Other screens in the Amiga version just had coloured blocks
instead of proper sprites, 'cos he hadn't finished them yet.

Our Atari ST version was created in two stages. First of all, we
disassembled the original Z80 code and reverse engineered it into C.
Then, we re-coded some of Matthew Smith's graphics and sound routines
for the Atari ST.  We worked using a Sinclair Spectrum with a Zeus
Disassembler and the original JSW program, and an Atari ST 512 with the
Sozobon C compiler.  We had no physical link between the computers - the
disassembled code was listed on the Spectrum screen, and entered into
the Atari by hand!  Each of the screens' data was dumped as hex, and
dictated to a typist who entered it into struct { } statements in the C
program.

By the end of the 1980s, Software Projects felt that Jet Set Willy had
had its day, and decided to cancel both the Amiga and the Atari ST
projects. (However, the Amiga version of Manic Miner, by Shahid Ahmad
who wrote JSW, had been on sale for a few months by this time). Since SP
weren't interested, we gave a copy of our ST version away to someone in
England who wanted a copy for himself. Apparently, he gave copies to
lots of people. This version can be identified in a number of ways. We
altered the authorship message to read "Perfect Conversions, Hamburg",
for example.

We once asked Tommy Barton about Matthew Smith, and whether the mythical
game "Willy Meets the Taxman" had ever existed. He replied that Matthew
had indeed started work on a sequal to JSW called "Willy Meets the
Taxman", and had even shown demos to the staff of Software Projects.
Tommy recalled seeing sequences in which Willy waltzed with Maria the
housekeeper. He said that the graphics were bigger, and not really the
same as JSW or Manic Miner. However, he said that Matthew had lost
interest in the project very quickly, and had left. He no longer knew of
Matthew's whereabouts.

Anyway, there you are I hope you found all that interesting. It was
certainly an interesting period for both of us as programmers.


A FEW WORDS ABOUT PLAYING THE GAME
----------------------------------

FIRST, the JSW game works with the ST joystick.  It should also work
with keys, but I don't remember which ones.

SECOND, pressing the keys 1-5 (or was it F1-F5?) should change the
speed at which the program runs.

THIRD, there are two "hidden" rooms.  These date from 1984 when Carl
and I first got a level editor for the original JSW.  We made two new
rooms, in position 47 and after the last room. These were called "Buried
Treasure" and "Zaphod says: DON'T PANIC!".  When we converted the game,
we sneakily included this rooms!

Sorry to have such vague memories of the controls, the teleporter,
etc... but I haven't played the ST game for six years.


	Paul Taylor

It never got released at the time (1989) BECAUSE it was a 1:1 port.


It should be practical to convert the Atari ST version. Ask Galahad? Or Meynaf?

Just recently someone has had a go at a new JSW for the PC which is an 8-way scroller rather than a flip-screen and it is how the 16-bit versions should have looked liked.

https://twitter.com/CPL_Games/status...53912848334849

What was wrong with the conversion of Manic Miner to Amiga? I remember it as being pretty close, even had that horrible piano playing at the start.

EDIT: I take it you mean JSW! I read it wrong!

[Dunny]

Gotta disagree here with the "meant to be born and die on the 8bits" mindset. Andy Noble's remakes of MM and JSW in 2004 are brilliant on the PC.

[saimon69]

Maybe we should do a 1:1 port in native 68k code BUT that emulates even the color clash and the crunchy beeper - not an easy feat to achieve

[Havie]

Three terrible games - totally agree.

There have been some excellent remakes over time - the old Retroremakes crew used to have a lot of fun with JSW online I remember.

Graphics could be coloured up but should not scroll - that's the issue!

And as for Chuckie Egg...

[Galahad/FLT]

I loved Chuckie Egg on the BBC B, but it was a game of its time.

At no point when I got my Amiga did I want to bother with chuckie egg again, because it was never about the graphics.

I think it would have been a moderately acceptable budget release with 2-3 other 8 bit classics on the same disc, but certainly not as a standalone title.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by ice8629

Me neither, hearing Zeus play these (and lets be honest with ourselves here) crappy games reminds me just how I was feeling after spending my money on some of these bad games back in the day especially after reading a positive mag review and then finding out It's crud,...angry and cheated!

Those developers knew damned well that their product was bad, yet wanted your money anyway. Shameful really.

[Havie]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

I loved Chuckie Egg on the BBC B, but it was a game of its time.

At no point when I got my Amiga did I want to bother with chuckie egg again, because it was never about the graphics.

I think it would have been a moderately acceptable budget release with 2-3 other 8 bit classics on the same disc, but certainly not as a standalone title.

Played it on the Speccy and it was a revelation when you got through all the levels for the big bird to come out of it's cage and chase you. Amazing! Jump is a bit dodgy though...

[sneeker]

Chuckie egg of the bbc was a masterpiece, chuckie egg on the amiga was a horrible mess, they tried to update the graphics and it made it near impossible to see, and the controls where nowhere near as responsive.

I played chuckie egg at play expo 2016 I think,27 years after I had a bbc, and I still had the muscle memory to get to level forty something ( 2 birds and the dodos)

[Axxy]

Tbh, I didn't particularly like Manic Miner or Jet Set Willy on the speccy back in the day, both were a bit lame..

Now, Chuckie Egg on the speccy on the other hand was brilliant. Even with the colour gash, jumping onto ladders in this game should be done in all games like this.

Every time I played games on the Amiga or PC that involved ladders or something to climb up and down, the detection or lack of when stood nearby still pisses me off today.

I'm playing Sniper Elite 5 (PC) atm and just like SE4, sometimes trying to get on the ladder just makes me cringe and swear like a trooper when the game doesn't detect it and you can't get on the ladder or you fall down the hole to your death, still 39 years later ladders are still a bugger in games.

[DisasterIncarna]

at least JSW II wasnt a black and white spectrum type of port.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by DisasterIncarna

at least JSW II wasnt a black and white spectrum type of port.

The idea of a port is make it as close as possible to the original - barring bug fixes and performance improvements. The problem with the Amiga versions of Manic Miner and JSW II is that the advanced capabilities of the Amiga were used to 'enhance' the games, which actually made them worse.

The original Manic Miner was designed to make best use of the Spectrum's monochrome graphics with attribute color and composite/rf output. Part of its charm is how every pixel is used to bring the characters to life, and the blurring/shadowing of composite video produces interesting graphical effects. Another part is the realistic and predictable character movement and synchronized sound effects that make the player feel 'connected' to the game.

The Amiga version enlarged the graphics to add detail, which required a scrolling window instead of showing the whole screen at once. It swapped the stark contrast and simplicity of the Spectrum's mono graphics for more 'realistic' colors and objects, but this totally destroyed the look and feel of the game. The original Miner Willy was a serious character with a purpose - someone you could identify with. the Amiga version is a clown with a stupidly large nose, angry scowl and cartoon-like gait. The moment you see see him you want to kill him.

Technically Miner Willy on the Amiga is a masterpiece compared to the original, but the game play is no better. The pixel perfect positioning that the Spectrum's cruder graphics enabled is gone. The main character is a goofy klutz, the enemies more cute than menacing, and the background graphics too pretty and distracting. Proof that better hardware doesn't necessarily make for a better game!

[gimbal]

Nobody bites? I'll be the pipsqueak this time around then.

Oh my god, you have a Youtube channel and have more fame than me, therefore you are a terrible person and I need to slander you by creating a single post in which I besmirch your person and your opinion. Yur stupid for not being super duper positive about everything, don't be mean about things others have done for which I will be offended in their place because I am the best person in the world!

Now I run away and never looking back at the thread or this site, and hence I can pretend that everyone agreed with me and thinks I am super duper cool.