Appiah's comprehensive 15KHz monitors list of caveat emptor

[kovacm]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Yes, there are lots.
Idek/Iiyama 5017/5021, NEC Multisync II, Eizo 9050/9060, Nokia 417TV, several Commodore monitors, several Acorn monitors, several Microvitek monitors.

Maybe it is good idea to put this info (15KHz and 31KHz) also in list?

[idrougge]

Why bother? Appiah isn't updating this list, and no-one else can update his post. You Atari guys had a wiki for exactly this thing but managed to destroy it too.

Besides, this info is already available in much more thorough lists which can be found via Google. If people can't find those lists, why would they find this one?

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by kovacm

Maybe it is good idea to put this info (15KHz and 31KHz) also in list?

Info about HSync and VSync range can be easily extracted from windows *.inf files - this is largest commonly available database for those parameters - perhaps some simple script can make this extraction more automatic.

[appiah4]

Originally Posted by idrougge

Why bother? Appiah isn't updating this list, and no-one else can update his post. You Atari guys had a wiki for exactly this thing but managed to destroy it too.

Besides, this info is already available in much more thorough lists which can be found via Google. If people can't find those lists, why would they find this one?

I will actually go through the last few pages and update the list.. I've just been kind of absorbed into retro PCs lately, but Amiga is where I always gravitate back to

EDIT: Updated with the new info in this thread. I would be more than happy to keep adding.

I'm not sure Windows .inf files are a great idea. First, it will probably result in many false negatives if not false positives (not many manufacturers will bother with coding the modes into their windows drivers). Second, compatibility with HSync won't automatically result in brilliant results..

[Jope]

Just read some old text files, and came by an Amiga FAQ from 1993.

Enjoy.

    MODEL             MANUFACTURER              PRICE   SIZE   kHz     VERT Hz

    MS-8431           Amazing Tech.             $399     14   15-36       ?
    AML-1402          Adara Technology,         $650     14   15-36     45-90
    CM-324            AOC International         $549     14   15-36     50-90
    CM-324H/M         AOC International           ?      14   15-36     50-90
    CM-326            AOC International         $649     14   15-38     50-90
    Auto-Trak 714     Conrac Display              ?      13   15.5-37   45-80
    Auto-Trak 9250    Conrac Display            $3,850   13   15-37.5   48-90
    Model 7126S       Conrac Display            $3,995   26   15-32     48-75
    Model 7211        Conrac Display            $4,120   13   15-37.5   47-80
    Model 7211        Conrac Display            $4,120   19   15-37.5   47-80
    Model 7241        Conrac Display            $2,995   19   15-37     47-80
    Model 9214        Conrac Display              ?      13   15-38     50-80
    Multiscan 3436    CTX International         $780     14   15-38     50-90
    TSM-1431          Darius Technology         $699     14   15.5-39   50-90
    ECM 1410          Electrohome, Ltd.         $1,195   14   15-40     45-90
    ECM 2010          Electrohome, Ltd.         $3,195   20   15-38     45-120
    Eversync Color    Everex Systems            $599     14   15.5-35   50-70
    FMS               Falco Data                $750     14   15-38     47-90
    MTS-9608S         Forefront Technology      $499     14   15-38     50-90
    TY-1411           Golden Dragon               ?      14   15.5-3    50-120
    Idek MF-5017      IDEK/Iiyama North Amer    $1,275   17   15-40     50-90
    Idek MF-5021      IDEK/Iiyama North Amer    $2,695   21   15.5-38   50-90
    C21LV-65MAX       Image Systems Corp.         ?      21   15-65     55-90
    C24LV-65MAX       Image Systems Corp.         ?      24   15-65     55-90
    CM-1403           Intra Electronics USA     $300     14   15-38     40-100
    GD-H4220US        JVC Information           $2,895   19   15-37     45-87
    CMON M            Leading Edge              $599     14   15.75-39  50-90
    MagicVIEW 20      Mac                       $1,999   20   15.75-36  50-100
    Model 2014/LP     Microvitec,                 ?      14   15-40     45-100
    Model 2020        Microvitec,               $2,495   20   15-38       ?
    Model 710MH       Mitsuba Corp.             $415     14   15-38     50-90
    Diamond Pro 26M   Mitsubishi Electronics    $11,300  25   15-38     45-90
    HC-3505SK         Mitsubishi Electronics    $11,300  26   15.7-38   45-90
    XC-3315C          Mitsubishi Electronics    $5,495   33   15-38     40-120
    XC-3715C          Mitsubishi Electronics    $7,599   37   15-36     45-120
    AM-2752A          Mitsubishi Electronics    $3,700   27   15.6-36   45-90
    AM-3151A          Mitsubishi Electronics    $5,200   31   15.6-36   45-90
    AM-3501R          Mitsubishi Electronics    $6,900   35   15-35.5   45-70
    AM-1381A          Mitsubishi Electronics    $839     14   15.6-36   45-90
    MG-3430           Modgraph,                 $985     9    15-35     50-70
    DM-2710           NEC Technologies,         $3,995   27   15-38     40-100
    PanaSync C1391    Panasonic Communicatio    $899     13   15.5-36   40-80
    Ultra 1200        Princeton Graphic Syst    $450     12   15-38     45-120
    Ultra 1400        Princeton Graphic Syst    $899     14   15-38     45-120
    Ultra 1600        Princeton Graphic Syst    $775     16   15-38     45-120
    AlphaScan         Sampo Corp. of America    $649     14   15.75-36  50-87
    CE-8              Sceptre Technologies,     $995     14   15-38     50-90
    CM-3              Sceptre Technologies,     $795     14   15.5-36   50-70
    CPD-1302          SONY Corporation          $995     13   15.75-36  50-100
    GVM-1310          SONY Corporation          $1,295   13   15.75-36  50-100
    GVM-2020          SONY Corporation          $1,595   20   15.75-36  50-100
    Tuff/CRT          Talon Technology Corp.    $6,000   14   15-35     47-73
    Omniscan CM-1495H Tatung Co. of America,    $899     14   15-37     40-120
    MultiVision 770+  TAXAN America             $895     14   15-37     50-90
    MediaScan 3+      TVM Professional Monit      ?      14   15-38     46-100
    TM-5414           TW Casper Corp.             ?      14   15.5-35   50-70

[demolition]

AM-3501R Mitsubishi Electronics $6,900 35 15-35.5 45-70

35" - that is quite a size for a CRT.
Looks like it has a decent picture as well:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/inde...topic=115103.0

[pandy71]

Originally Posted by appiah4

I'm not sure Windows .inf files are a great idea. First, it will probably result in many false negatives if not false positives (not many manufacturers will bother with coding the modes into their windows drivers). Second, compatibility with HSync won't automatically result in brilliant results..

Well - please allow me to disagree with you.
With such data (Mitsubishi monitor inf file):

[VS-1280.AddReg]

HKR,"MODES\1600,1200",Mode1,,"15.0-100.0,40.0-150.0,+,+"

HKR,,MaxResolution,,"1600,1200"

HKR,,DPMS,,0

HKR,,ICMProfile,1,2

All information is provided and i see no point to not trust hardware vendor providing safe range of parameters that can be selected by user.
As CRT display can be even destroyed those data are proper as they need to prevent possibility to select incorrect one.

[idrougge]

The Nokia 417TV is arguably the best multisync money can buy, and nowhere does it say that it is 15 kHz compatible.

[kovacm]

I was wondering what is the difference between ordinary CRT TV and 15KHz monitors?

Does monitors have better image quality?

Especial if you compare latest CRT TV and old 15KHz monitors (e.g. Commodore 1084). Are newest CRT TV quality enough to use them with Amiga hi-res workbench stuff?

[demolition]

Originally Posted by kovacm

I was wondering what is the difference between ordinary CRT TV and 15KHz monitors?
Does monitors have better image quality?

Generally yes. Monitors will usually also show a larger portion of the screen (overscan). People watching TV generally would not like to see black borders so the image is stretched larger and cut off a bit all way round. This is not too good when used with WB. Good monitors also have a finer dot pitch than TVs.

Originally Posted by idrougge

The Nokia 417TV is arguably the best multisync money can buy, and nowhere does it say that it is 15 kHz compatible.

The .inf files specify the safe range. It is not uncommon that a monitor can go outside the range specified in the inf file. I remember my old Hitachi monitor was specced to go to 1600x1200 in 85 Hz, however the inf file only specified up to 75 Hz in that resolution. Not sure why, but I had to edit the file and reinstall it to make 85 Hz appear in Windows. I ran it at 85 Hz for many years so it was surely not outside spec, but the either the inf had an error, or for some reason they did not want people to push their monitors to the limit (although 85 Hz was listed in the specifications).

[idrougge]

And especially, there is no particular reason for a Windows monitor driver to specify frequencies below 30 kHz.

[demolition]

Originally Posted by idrougge

And especially, there is no particular reason for a Windows monitor driver to specify frequencies below 30 kHz.

Perhaps not, but there are cases where it could make sense. Back when people wanted to play back video/DVDs on their PCs, you could either hack the .inf file or use PowerStrip to enable the VGA output to output a 50Hz 576i signal. This could either be connected to a capable monitor or to a SCART RGB input on a TV or CRT projector for optimum picture quality. But in general, VGA monitors could not go below 31kHz hsync. I had a 15" monitor which could go down to 50 Hz (progressive though), but it was horrible to look at due to the massive flicker.

[nobody]

I found that most TV's/monitors that have DVI or HDMI in or scart will do 50hz 720*576. I don't know about accepting Amiga signal but if you connect a PC they will do 50hz (with dvi-hdmi cable).

[idrougge]

Err, otherwise they wouldn't be TVs.

[demolition]

Well, 50 Hz is standard in HDMI-world, but it isn't in VGA-world so even though a monitor can take 50 Hz through its DVI port doesn't mean it can do 50 Hz on the VGA port.. My Dell 2408WFP can take 50 Hz through DVI (although it is resampled to 60 Hz) but on VGA it refuses to display anything below 60 Hz.

[kovacm]

Vertical 50Hz or 60Hz is not relevant for this thread (showing Amiga picture and modern TV/monitor).

Important is horizontal resolution of 15KHz.

[Mnemesi]

I got set of 3 Samsung Syncmasters to report about with VGA-connectable Amigas: The 943 works effortlessly with DoubleNTSC mode, though it can't take sync (unsurprisingly) regular NTSC or Pal. Same with the S22C150 (which seems to be related to the SA350). Even though the latter's widescreen, it can pillar-box nicely. The 930B sadly is a dud.

[hyperlogos]

I am using a SHARP LC-20E1UBM EDTV, and converting the RGB signal with an Audio Authority VGA to component converter. This is working nicely on my Amiga 1200. I made my own DB23 to HD15 cable but I presume an off the shelf one would work. The relevant part is that the TV will do the right frequency. Picture quality is so-so, but noticeably better than using component. Specs say it supports "NTSC, PAL, PAL-M, PAL-N, SECAM"

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by Mnemesi

I got set of 3 Samsung Syncmasters to report about with VGA-connectable Amigas: The 943 works effortlessly with DoubleNTSC mode, though it can't take sync (unsurprisingly) regular NTSC or Pal. Same with the S22C150 (which seems to be related to the SA350). Even though the latter's widescreen, it can pillar-box nicely. The 930B sadly is a dud.

DoubleNTSC is close enough to VGA to be supported by most monitors.

[Jope]

Originally Posted by idrougge

DoubleNTSC is close enough to VGA to be supported by most monitors.

You can add the VGAOnly monitor booster for added pleasure.