Shit Game Time: Carver (Amiga), middle fingers to the poogrammers!

[ZEUSDAZ]

Hi all, It's Friday yet again so that means another Shit Game Time review and this week I've actually thrown my own choice into the bag,...followed by flushing it down the poo tube.


This edition I will be playing and shit rating the Amiga game Carver (heard of it?!,...nope nor me), It's one of the most unfairest piles of shite I've ever played to the point I feel the poogrammers never wanted anyone to get far in it and complete their precious shitey game, I hope you enjoy it and look forward to your thoughts as usual

Shit rating at 23:53 if you do not wish to watch it all.

CARVER Shit Game Time video: [ Show youtube player ]

[deimos]

Is there a list available of the games you wrote?

[jotd]

I did the whdload install of that one. Never really played it. Seemed not that good.

Is there a list available of the games you wrote?

you don't have to write movies to tell if a movie is shit. That's the same for games.

[deimos]

Originally Posted by jotd

I did the whdload install of that one. Never really played it. Seemed not that good.



you don't have to write movies to tell if a movie is shit. That's the same for games.

There's a difference between watching a movie and deciding it's shit verses creating a whole youtube channel based on shitting on other peoples' hard work. In fact, that's all this channel does, call things shit.

[ross]

Originally Posted by jotd

And sure I did the whdload install of that one. Never really played it. Seemed not that good.

And it is sure that no one has completed the WHDload version because it crashes at the ending screen! (also floppy version get stuck in some condition).

The game also has bugs and crashes when using KS3.1 (it is expected an unmodified scratch register on an exec call, and instead of course it is ..).

I enjoyed this video, I smiled all the time

[deimos]

Originally Posted by ice8629

No in fact that's just 10% of that channel, the rest of it is let's plays of good games, let's longplays, retro game music, longplays, livestreams, demo's etc, Shit Game Time is just a small section of Zeus's channel, there's something for everyone which is why I personally like that channel.
There's a reason certain games get put into the Shit game time section,....because they are SHIT!, no other reason and if they release garbage like many of the games that have made it into that section then that game and the programmers deserve all the flak they get for selling us kids such trash for high prices.



...and as for the part you wrote about programmers and their hard work you'd be happy with the likes of HKM on the Amiga or Enduro Racer on the C64 for starters would you?!,...I think not

Whatever.

[jotd]

Originally Posted by deimos

There's a difference between watching a movie and deciding it's shit verses creating a whole youtube channel based on shitting on other peoples' hard work. In fact, that's all this channel does, call things shit.

Movie critics don't write movies either. They sometimes burn one movie or two.

I don't think the original programmers would give a shit about such criticism, specially 30 years after. I'm sure they're not very proud of the games that are exposed here, right from the start.

Those reviews are a bit late, but I still enjoy watching them because you really feel the frustration of our host trying honestly to play it, and trying again and again.

[saimon69]

OK i think we found Tiertex Owner

[gimbal]

Originally Posted by deimos

There's a difference between watching a movie and deciding it's shit verses creating a whole youtube channel based on shitting on other peoples' hard work. In fact, that's all this channel does, call things shit.

You obviously did not even take a second to look at the actual youtube channel.

on-topic: ah it's a game with small sprites. I can't help it I'm a sucker for games with small sprites. It just looks so endearing to me. I mean it looks really boring but it has good bones. Someone can make a good game out of this.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by deimos

Whatever.

There is no "whatever" about it.

You made a claim that was demonstrably false and when corrected on it, you didnt have to good graces to admit you were wrong.

Saying "whatever" is essentially doubling down and acting like a petulant teenager.

Sort it out chap, youre an adult ffs

[alkis21]

There were dozens of shit games on the Amiga and this was definitely not one of them.

What I see is a video of a bloke who complains for half and hour about how difficult and unfair a 1991 game is. 90% of action games on the Amiga were difficult and unfair and impossible to complete. It's just the way they were. Did that make them all shit? Absolutely not. Carver was a mediocre game but the design was appealing, the controls were above average and if a little more attention had been paid to the movements of the enemies, it could have been good. Even as it was, there was fun to be had.

I'm sorry, but to me this looks like a video made by a 20 year old who wants to make fun of old tech like "L0LZ l00k at how lame the games were back then, OMG they didn't even have voice overs or proper motion capture". At some point he even says that this can only be played if you have a real Amiga with a CRT monitor and you sit one foot away from it. Sorry buddy, that's the way we played back then (many of us still have the hardware), it's not the game's fault you're trying to play it on your 60'' TV sitting on the couch with an X-Box controller or something.

Also, 'middle fingers to the poogrammers!' is incredibly childish and offensive.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by alkis21

Also, 'middle fingers to the poogrammers!' is incredibly childish and offensive.

This. I don't watch these videos, but up till now thought the whole "STG" thing is just yet another theatrical youtube gimmick (gotta get these clicks, yo), a la AVN. Somewhat annoying (to me) but basically harmless.The "we criticise old stuff" idea is fine in itself, even if many of the titles dragged there weren't actually that bad at all.

But, riding the "evil programmers" angle is simply daft. It's an extreme oversimplification of real-life realities of videogame publishing back then, and also very unfair to many people involved. Yeah, I'm sure there were some cold hearted hacks out there too, but most of the "programmers" were just young people working an unstable job in a budding industry, with varied skills, deadlines, resources, and most importantly, management. often bedroom coders, who were just learning the trade and nowadays would be lauded for their efforts.



So, please, spare me that 'the programmers deserve all the flak they get for selling us kids such trash for high prices" maudlin BS.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by alkis21

Also, 'middle fingers to the poogrammers!' is incredibly childish and offensive.

Might be childish, but its not offensive.

You either accept that there were poor games on the Amiga or any other format or they were all exceptional.

They can't be both.

If you are a Kick Off 2 fan or a Sensi Soccer fan, you are a fan for particular reasons. You choose these games over the many other football games on the Amiga.

Why don't you play World Cup 94?
Why don't you play Kick Off 3?
Why don't you play Gary Linekers Hot Shot?
Why don't you play Graeme Souness Vector Soccer?

You have reasons why you avoid those games over the football game you would rather play.

Crap programming is absolutely a reason why any one of those games is not to your liking, pretending otherwise is to suggest every Amiga programmer put in their absolute best efforts when doing titles for Amiga, when the facts are demonstrably that it isn't true.

When someone says "thats offensive" I just wonder what ANYONE is supposed to do with that meaningless phrase, because it seems that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING today is "offensive".

Perspective is needed.

[rothers]

I think videos like this help improve games for us all - taking in the criticism and not doing that bullshit in games you develop is a good thing.

I cringe when I look back at my early work. Wish I'd had youtube videos to learn from.

[alkis21]

Galahad, I literally started my post with "There were dozens of shit games on the Amiga". Of course I acknowledge and accept this fact.

I do not condemn every gamer's or Youtuber's right to call an Amiga game poor. I specifically criticize this video because it's garbage and it bashes on a game for all the wrong reasons.

And just because the phrase "that's offensive" is overused nowadays, it doesn't mean that the phrase is meaningless. Allow me to stand by what I said.

[gimbal]

It has been made pretty meaningless to be honest. Just another word people like to use to shut others down, and therefore I would rather not use it anymore. I'm sure that you wanted to use it for it's original purpose, but... it doesn't work anymore. It has lost it's charge.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by alkis21

Galahad, I literally started my post with "There were dozens of shit games on the Amiga". Of course I acknowledge and accept this fact.

I do not condemn every gamer's or Youtuber's right to call an Amiga game poor. I specifically criticize this video because it's garbage and it bashes on a game for all the wrong reasons.

And just because the phrase "that's offensive" is overused nowadays, it doesn't mean that the phrase is meaningless. Allow me to stand by what I said.

But yet you dismiss the OP's opinion of the game, even though you accept that shit games exist on the Amiga.

You point would be more relevant if the OP's Youtube channel was dedicated to solely shitting on games on the Amiga, but even a cursory look at his channel would show that isn't true.

And what are the "wrong reasons" to criticise a game?

You are a fan of Kick Off 2, I personally could NEVER get used to the ball control in that game. Any criticism I have of the game would likely be dismissed by you because of your obvious skill at it, but yet the fact remains, I just can't get on with the control scheme of Kick Off 2.

Doesn't mean that my criticism is wrong from my perspective, as most of the criticisms of anything are subjective, not objective.

Shadow the Beast looks great to most people that saw it for the first time, I would imagine most kids today seeing it for the first time would have quite a different opinion about its aesthetics.

And whilst you are content to "stand by what I said", sorry, but you must really have a low tolerance for differing opinions if you found anything he said actually "offensive", I don't doubt that some things can still be offensive, but its so diluted now that it very rarely used to mean anything that would qualify.

Certainly nothing you have stated has given me cause to think otherwise, a better choice of English might be "its in poor taste", but offensive?

Far too strong a description for anything in that video, but you are entitled to your opinion as others are entitled to challenge you on it.... and mine

[alkis21]

Let me be clear that I am continuing this debate not because I want to have the last word or anything, but because I genuinely find it interesting and I think that you make some good points.

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

You point would be more relevant if the OP's Youtube channel was dedicated to solely shitting on games on the Amiga, but even a cursory look at his channel would show that isn't true.

But I'm not commenting on his whole channel. Just on this video & EAB post. I applaud him if he cures cancer patients and builds huts in Burundi in those other videos, but right now I'm only addressing the current thread.

And what are the "wrong reasons" to criticise a game?

You are a fan of Kick Off 2, I personally could NEVER get used to the ball control in that game. Any criticism I have of the game would likely be dismissed by you because of your obvious skill at it, but yet the fact remains, I just can't get on with the control scheme of Kick Off 2.

Fair point about KO2, but that's not why I'd dismiss a criticism. The wrong reasons in my book are ignoring the era when a game was made. As I wrote before, he claims the game is shit stating reasons that apply to 90% of Amiga action games. And perhaps it wouldn't ruffle my feathers so badly had it simply been a review, but he downright insults the developers. This game does not deserve this much hate, they are so many shovelware, half-assed attempts on the Amiga that do. Some people actually worked hard on this title and it should be obvious to any retro gamer.

Certainly nothing you have stated has given me cause to think otherwise, a better choice of English might be "its in poor taste", but offensive?

OK fine, let the record show that I'm changing my phrase to Also, 'middle fingers to the poogrammers!' is incredibly childish and in poor taste.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

Crap programming is absolutely a reason why any one of those games is not to your liking, pretending otherwise is to suggest every Amiga programmer put in their absolute best efforts when doing titles for Amiga, when the facts are demonstrably that it isn't true.
[...]

Perspective is needed.

It seems quite bizarre to request "perspective" when the point you're making is sorely lacking just that. The picture you paint is some sort of binary Hollywood scenario, where the work of savant programmers triumphs over "crap" from the lazy dumb ones.

Meanwhile, (as you yourself should know best) the reality was much more mixed up and not one-dimensional. There were duds from celebrated teams/devs, good games from rubbish ones, and everything in between. Some decisions were certainly motivated by greed, others by economics of industry survival. Somebody asks you to do a complex arcade port with little resources and a tight deadline, are you going to say, "No, sir, I do not believe my young and inexperienced team is up to the task, so I have to refuse."? I doubt it very much. The devs themselves might've had various levels of skill, but that doesn't automatically make them all rubbish or having bad intentions.

I also doubt anybody here knows what the real story behind Carver was, yet people have no problem to dump on it in very po-faced fashion (the lightghearted one is fine, but we're past that). To me it seems like a mediocre but ok little game, clearly a bedroom coding project not meant to compete with big titles, which doesn't take itself too seriously (the intro trick is quite funny). It's a much more honest product than a real turd from big publisher and its programmers do not deserve serious scorn. They were as much part of what made Amiga great (a people's computer, accessible to anybody) as coding celebrities.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by alkis21

Let me be clear that I am continuing this debate not because I want to have the last word or anything, but because I genuinely find it interesting and I think that you make some good points.

Just so we're clear, I have no animosity toward you, people with differing opinions should be mature enough to discuss them, the internet could do with more of that

Originally Posted by alkis21

But I'm not commenting on his whole channel. Just on this video & EAB post. I applaud him if he cures cancer patients and builds huts in Burundi in those other videos, but right now I'm only addressing the current thread.

That's fair enough, but i'm just offering a counter to balance out the criticism that you claimed sounded like a "20 year old who wants to make fun of old tech", and those style of channels for the most part are simply there to shit on everything, Zeus's channel doesn't.

Originally Posted by alkis21

Fair point about KO2, but that's not why I'd dismiss a criticism. The wrong reasons in my book are ignoring the era when a game was made. As I wrote before, he claims the game is shit stating reasons that apply to 90% of Amiga action games. And perhaps it wouldn't ruffle my feathers so badly had it simply been a review, but he downright insults the developers. This game does not deserve this much hate, they are so many shovelware, half-assed attempts on the Amiga that do. Some people actually worked hard on this title and it should be obvious to any retro gamer.

This is where we differ. Whether we think someone worked hard on something doesn't negate that the end result still wasn't satisfactory, in the same way someone working really hard to pass an exam doesn't get an A because of how hard they worked, they get the result they deserve for what they actually achieved, and sometimes that's a D.

Carver is a game from 1991, and I am singularly unimpressed with its graphical content, and there should be no issues with highlighting it.

Your argument would work better had Carver been a game from 1987, when the first developers were getting to grips with the hardware, it would have been a game of its time that reasonable people could say "It wasn't the best in 1987, but it was comparable to other games of its time."

However, it was released in 1991, and things on the Amiga had moved on quite a bit since then, even the lamentable Tiertex, whilst still bad, had clearly improved over time. Carver was a game that had 1987 aesthetics, released 4 years too late.

Originally Posted by alkis21

OK fine, let the record show that I'm changing my phrase to Also, 'middle fingers to the poogrammers!' is incredibly childish and in poor taste.

I think if you had chosen any word other than "offensive", it really wouldn't be something that would stick out so much, but in recent years, the word "offensive" has been so utterly diluted now, that it takes power away from the word when its really needed.

But we discussed like adults, the internet didn't get to see a fight today lol