What you should tell someone that says the Amiga & its software is too old.

Pyromania · 02 March 2002, 19:21

What does it matter if something is old? Charles Dickens said any book you haven't read is a new book. What does it matter whether it's old? I don't understand what this lemming-like dementia is about constantly having new stuff. When was the last time you read the totality of Steinbeck or Faulkner or Katherine Anne Porter or Shirley Jackson? Everybody always wants something new, new, new—and that's what's killing life for writers. This dementia for "new" is ridiculous. It turns everybody into a back number. I don't mean to get cranky about it, but it's something that weighs very heavily, not only on my mind but on the mind of everybody who works in this kind of medium. We're dealing with a more and more illiterate and amnesiac constituency. It's impossible to get a readership that will follow you, because all they know is what they knew yesterday. And they've been so bastardized as an audience that there are actually average citizens out there who think William Shatner writes those idiot novels with his byline on them. It's like going to take a look at the Top 40 list; there's no point in remembering the names of the people on there, because they weren't here last week and they ain't gonna be here next week. And if you try to be courant and say, "Who do we listen to at the moment? Should we listen to Celine Dion? Backstreet Boys? Anthrax? Who should we be listening to?" there'll always be some whey-faced youth who'll look at you and say, "They're old, man! The great new group is 'Edge'!" Next week, ask 'em about Edge and they'll say, "Edge who?" There is a loss of memory. When they start naming the 100 greatest performers of the century, for Christ's sake, and Edith Piaf is not on the goddamn list and Bob Dylan is, then you say, "Wait a minute, folks, there's something wrong here." They don't remember Bert Williams, they don't remember Al Jolson, they don't remember fuckin' Glenn Miller. They don't remember Stevie Ray Vaughan! And so when I hear this what-are-you-doing-lately thing, or that the Edgeworks books are bringing back all of my older books, I say, "Yeah, they're real old books—like five years old!" See, I do go off on these things. And if you ask the wrong question, I get real cranky.

--Harlan Ellison Famous author

To summerize The Amiga and its software are only as old as what your computer needs are. If you have never used an app or played a game it's new to you.

I don't want the latest tool I want the best tool for the job!

-- Bill Panagouleas Amiga developer

jmmijo · 02 March 2002, 19:31

Ah yes Harlan Ellison, something classic he gave us too, an all-time classic Star Trek episode. Anyone else remember the title?!? I shouldn't need to provide a hint on this one

As for remembering past last week, yes I think we should all remember Stevie Ray Vaughan, one of the best is Texas Flood!

Djay · 02 March 2002, 23:21

Laugh?

Twistin'Ghost · 03 March 2002, 01:39

Quote:

Originally posted by jmmijo
Ah yes Harlan Ellison, something classic he gave us too, an all-time classic Star Trek episode. Anyone else remember the title?!? I shouldn't need to provide a hint on this one

As for remembering past last week, yes I think we should all remember Stevie Ray Vaughan, one of the best is Texas Flood!

I think Ellison is perhaps better remembered for his other written works moreso than The City On The Edge of Forever. The man has written beaucoup stuff, most of it very worthwhile (and you TV fans will note his short stories have appeared on numerous horror anthology shows, as well).

Stevie Ray Vaughan was awesome and I am glad I got to see his statue in downtown Austin.

The point here, which is a good one, is that people are so hungry for new, that they will sacrifice quality to get it. Celine Dion, indeed...[/me pukes liberally]

jmmijo · 03 March 2002, 01:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
Stevie Ray Vaughan was awesome and I am glad I got to see his statue in downtown Austin.

That must've been neat, I've only been to San Antonio, basic training at Lackland AFB back in the day

Quote:

The point here, which is a good one, is that people are so hungry for new, that they will sacrifice quality to get it. Celine Dion, indeed...[/me pukes liberally]

Ah, it was great to see the Celebrity Deathmatch on MTV, this alien creature came out of the Celine Dion character to wreak havoc on the crowd :laugh

EDIT: I'm into a lot of diverse music, not much on Country however. Give me some BB and Pink Floyd and I'm set for life

Twistin'Ghost · 03 March 2002, 02:08

Quote:

Originally posted by jmmijo
That must've been neat, I've only been to San Antonio, basic training at Lackland AFB back in the day

[/B]

Austin is one of my favorite cities. One can never be bored there, the music scene is almost too big there, and it is a very tech city, not unlike Silicon Valley. And it's pretty clean and low on crime. The only thing I didn't like there was the non-natives from up north (the yankees...) - they were assholes.

Quote:

Originally posted by jmmijo
I'm into a lot of diverse music, not much on Country however. Give me some BB and Pink Floyd and I'm set for life

I pretty much abhor country, and I find this new, modern (contemporary) country to be the foulest incantation yet. Like Lite Rock with that mule hee-haw voice - two things I already despise rolled into one big over-glossed package. Ugh...I shutter just thinking about it. I did, however, hear a song from the new Tim McGraw album that rocked.

BB? Beastie Boys? BBMack? Beach Boys? B.B. King? Billy Barty?

jmmijo · 03 March 2002, 02:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost
BB? Beastie Boys? BBMack? Beach Boys? B.B. King? Billy Barty?

All of the above:laugh

BB King, sorry about that. I can listen to "The Thrill Is Gone" oh about 1 trillion times and not get sick of it. All of the stuff from Pink Floyd kicks ass too, I love getting out the Piper At the Gates of Dawn and Meddle and just feel like I've just licked some

Amiga1992 · 03 March 2002, 02:52

I'd tell them "yes you are right, SO WHAT? It runs better than yuor Pentium"

Amiga1992 · 03 March 2002, 02:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyromania
Charles Dickens said any book you haven't read is a new book.

Indeed. Sometimes I talk about "my new computer", and I might be referring to a Tandy CoCo3! Then people go like "wtfd? that's old!"

not to me, I never had one before

Djay · 03 March 2002, 03:20

Quote:

not to me, I never had one before

true

Twistin'Ghost · 03 March 2002, 03:37

Quote:

Originally posted by jmmijo
BB King, sorry about that. I can listen to "The Thrill Is Gone" oh about 1 trillion times and not get sick of it.

Yeah, that song and Brook Benton's "Rainy Night in Georgia" are like classic games...from an era that will more than likely never be recreated again.

jmmijo · 03 March 2002, 07:36

That's for sure, looks like your new avatar is Willy Beamish

@Akira, I guess I shoul've kept those old CP/M machines, a Kaypro and an Osbourne

I loved the, at the time, portability. Good for the arms too

Amiga1992 · 03 March 2002, 08:38

Ah, a Kaypro! Yes Id love one of those beasts

khephren · 03 March 2002, 11:16

Tell them "Mhz for Mhz, the Amiga pisses over your Pentium/Athlon"

Minuous · 13 March 2002, 06:47

I agree with Pyromania.

An important point to remember, next time you are in Amiga-advocacy mode, is that the IBM-PC was released in 1981, the Crapintosh in 1984 and the Amiga in 1985. So the Amiga is not old, the other two are old. The IBM-PC is older than the ZX Spectrum!

It really shows, too, when you look at the architectures of the various machines; the Amiga is a clean design, not a kludged-together bodge.

So IBM-PC wankers don't know what they are talking about when they say 'Amigas are old'. Such a line of reasoning makes no sense and is contrary to the facts.

And of course, generally old games are better than new ones anyway. I have only played about 5 new games since the mid-90s that have been any good. Whereas I have hundreds of good games dating before the mid-90s.

Miggy2TheMax · 13 March 2002, 22:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Minuous

... [snip]

And of course, generally old games are better than new ones anyway. I have only played about 5 new games since the mid-90s that have been any good. Whereas I have hundreds of good games dating before the mid-90s.

That is how I feel about the game situation as well. I keep on telling those x86 tools the same. Anyway didn't Pyro used to have your Avatar Minuous? You doods confuse me

Drake1009 · 13 March 2002, 23:41

The whole game thing changes I guess. And the reason there were so many of the earlier games which seemed better must be in part because of the fond memories we had. But still there's something wrong. I just bought Pizza connection 2 in hopes that it would be a bit like Pizza tycoon. It was indeed a bit like it, but way too confusing and they had removed many of the great things as well. No more having a time limit for moving around. You hired thugs to go mess up competitors or gangsters to demand protection money, or reported the competitor to the police.

I liked the old game where you could always make a quick buck by running a small job for the mafia, and you'd better plan how much time you needed for moving because otherwise they'd get upset with you. I also liked the subgame feel of sabotageing the opponent. But I have a feel that if I found a person who's into the newer gaming who'd actually like one of the two I'd think he'd chose pizza connection 2 because of the better graphics and more management options. And if you look at it. There are still plenty games which actually are good, but will never be classics for us.

Shatterhand · 14 March 2002, 04:48

Hmm, I agree with Drake at some points... while Quake is classic for some newer players, it will never be a classic for us, who grown up playing really good games like Turrican .

I hade a huge discussion about that with some guys in a games channle in a brazilian IRC server, and I got some conclusions

The truth is that the newer generation of players aren't REAL LOVING GAMERS like we are. We like to sit, to play a game and enjoy it. I have the feeling that what the younger player needs to enjoy a game is:

1 - FANTASTIC 3D GRAPHICS. Most newer players won't even approach a game with 2d graphics, and if it's in 3D, they need to have zillions of poligons, even if they still look crap. (Argument of a guy in that channel: "Look at Max Payne... " (A game that I rather liked) "... the graphics are just great!" and then I say (Yeah, it has lots of poligons really, pushing the PC and all, but don't they look really bland?"

2 - REALISM. Newer players need a feeling that they are doing something realistic, even although they obviosuly aren't (and realism many times kills gameeplay... argument from that same guy "Max Payne is a very realistic game, look the way he moves, the locations..." me: "Yeah, very realistic the way you push the right button and you just slow down the whole world. And that's not a fucking "Cinematic effect" , this name was given just to sell the game, the slowdown actually affects the gameplay a LOT"

3 - IT HAS TO BE EASY. When I say easy, I say it has to be something the player will understand and master in 5 minutes. I think that's the main reason why all games nowadays are the same. Newer players need the feeling they are always WINNING, or else the will move to something else. Ok, a game like , say , Starcraft may take a long time to beat, but it's just a matter of repeat the same strategy over and over and over. And you can even save the game at anytime, so you can resume the game at any point you want. And you also may search internet and find lots of cheat for games. I am tired of young players come at me, and ask if I have a cheat mode for X or Y game. I even know some little kids that only plays the game if he knows the FUCKING CHEAT MODE. Take a look at the most sucessfull multiplayer games. 95% of them are just about memorizing where maps, requiring few or no skill at all. Give a game like Uridium 2 for a younger player, and he will just go and say "What the hell, those ships don't attack me the same way all the time... hey, I need to DODGE those bullets? Can't I just press a button to do it automatically? Hey, where's the cheat mode?... bah, I'll play a FPS, it's just easier to play.."

That's what I say.. we LOVE games... they don't...

Twistin'Ghost · 14 March 2002, 05:38

Excellent analogy, Shatterhand. But there's a serious dichotomy going on there. While these kids claim they want (ahem) "realism", how can they claim this when they are using a cheat and have unlimited lives or invincibility?

The bottom line? People are fucking stupid. Like Harlan Ellison often rants about and it's easy to see why he's so pissed off at the way the human race has degraded to beneath the lowest common denominator. Gamers have become so brain-dead, they dare not delve into any other game genre. All they want is the same fucking arm with an almost identical collection of guns to switch out, and a bunch of tunnels or paths with a 3D view so they can bounce their viewing perspective (very unrealistic views, IMHO) and shoot things. It's like a bleek, dim version of the old shooting gallery games on the 8-bit systems. And heaven forbid if modern gamers should have to dip into that empty resource of their imagination!

I don't have a favorite FPS and never will. It's like having a favorite Beavis and Butthead episode. Or a favorite Limp Bizkit song. Or a favorite Police Academy film.

I am 100% convinced that people just keep getting stupider every single day and they meld into the media machine that does all of their thinking for them.

A few weeks ago, Pyromania emailed me a wonderful link...it's from The Onion and is an interview with Ellison. I always enjoy hearing him piss and moan about how stupid people are, so if you didn't get enough of that from me, I highly recommend reading his interview here, since he echos so much of what I think about what a bunch of idiots people have become.

http://avclub.theonion.com/avclub340...ature3407.html

Twistin'Ghost · 14 March 2002, 08:53

Sorry if the above statements offended anybody. I wasn't referring to anybody who has a favorite modern game or FPS, which I know a lot of users here do. I am referring to typical modern gamers.

02 March 2002, 19:21	#1
Pyromania Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 3,392	What you should tell someone that says the Amiga & its software is too old. What does it matter if something is old? Charles Dickens said any book you haven't read is a new book. What does it matter whether it's old? I don't understand what this lemming-like dementia is about constantly having new stuff. When was the last time you read the totality of Steinbeck or Faulkner or Katherine Anne Porter or Shirley Jackson? Everybody always wants something new, new, new—and that's what's killing life for writers. This dementia for "new" is ridiculous. It turns everybody into a back number. I don't mean to get cranky about it, but it's something that weighs very heavily, not only on my mind but on the mind of everybody who works in this kind of medium. We're dealing with a more and more illiterate and amnesiac constituency. It's impossible to get a readership that will follow you, because all they know is what they knew yesterday. And they've been so bastardized as an audience that there are actually average citizens out there who think William Shatner writes those idiot novels with his byline on them. It's like going to take a look at the Top 40 list; there's no point in remembering the names of the people on there, because they weren't here last week and they ain't gonna be here next week. And if you try to be courant and say, "Who do we listen to at the moment? Should we listen to Celine Dion? Backstreet Boys? Anthrax? Who should we be listening to?" there'll always be some whey-faced youth who'll look at you and say, "They're old, man! The great new group is 'Edge'!" Next week, ask 'em about Edge and they'll say, "Edge who?" There is a loss of memory. When they start naming the 100 greatest performers of the century, for Christ's sake, and Edith Piaf is not on the goddamn list and Bob Dylan is, then you say, "Wait a minute, folks, there's something wrong here." They don't remember Bert Williams, they don't remember Al Jolson, they don't remember fuckin' Glenn Miller. They don't remember Stevie Ray Vaughan! And so when I hear this what-are-you-doing-lately thing, or that the Edgeworks books are bringing back all of my older books, I say, "Yeah, they're real old books—like five years old!" See, I do go off on these things. And if you ask the wrong question, I get real cranky. --Harlan Ellison Famous author To summerize The Amiga and its software are only as old as what your computer needs are. If you have never used an app or played a game it's new to you. I don't want the latest tool I want the best tool for the job! -- Bill Panagouleas Amiga developer Last edited by Pyromania; 02 March 2002 at 19:27.

14 March 2002, 05:38	#19
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	Excellent analogy, Shatterhand. But there's a serious dichotomy going on there. While these kids claim they want (ahem) "realism", how can they claim this when they are using a cheat and have unlimited lives or invincibility? The bottom line? People are fucking stupid. Like Harlan Ellison often rants about and it's easy to see why he's so pissed off at the way the human race has degraded to beneath the lowest common denominator. Gamers have become so brain-dead, they dare not delve into any other game genre. All they want is the same fucking arm with an almost identical collection of guns to switch out, and a bunch of tunnels or paths with a 3D view so they can bounce their viewing perspective (very unrealistic views, IMHO) and shoot things. It's like a bleek, dim version of the old shooting gallery games on the 8-bit systems. And heaven forbid if modern gamers should have to dip into that empty resource of their imagination! I don't have a favorite FPS and never will. It's like having a favorite Beavis and Butthead episode. Or a favorite Limp Bizkit song. Or a favorite Police Academy film. I am 100% convinced that people just keep getting stupider every single day and they meld into the media machine that does all of their thinking for them. A few weeks ago, Pyromania emailed me a wonderful link...it's from The Onion and is an interview with Ellison. I always enjoy hearing him piss and moan about how stupid people are, so if you didn't get enough of that from me, I highly recommend reading his interview here, since he echos so much of what I think about what a bunch of idiots people have become. http://avclub.theonion.com/avclub340...ature3407.html Attached Thumbnails

14 March 2002, 08:53	#20
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	Disclaimer Sorry if the above statements offended anybody. I wasn't referring to anybody who has a favorite modern game or FPS, which I know a lot of users here do. I am referring to typical modern gamers.

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02 March 2002, 19:31	#2
jmmijo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: PDX Age: 62 Posts: 2,396	Ah yes Harlan Ellison, something classic he gave us too, an all-time classic Star Trek episode. Anyone else remember the title?!? I shouldn't need to provide a hint on this one As for remembering past last week, yes I think we should all remember Stevie Ray Vaughan, one of the best is Texas Flood!

02 March 2002, 23:21	#3
Djay 95th User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Brighton/UK Age: 48 Posts: 3,120	Laugh?

03 March 2002, 02:52	#8
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,656	I'd tell them "yes you are right, SO WHAT? It runs better than yuor Pentium"

03 March 2002, 07:36	#12
jmmijo Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: PDX Age: 62 Posts: 2,396	That's for sure, looks like your new avatar is Willy Beamish @Akira, I guess I shoul've kept those old CP/M machines, a Kaypro and an Osbourne I loved the, at the time, portability. Good for the arms too

03 March 2002, 08:38	#13
Amiga1992 Registered User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ? Posts: 19,656	Ah, a Kaypro! Yes Id love one of those beasts

03 March 2002, 11:16	#14
khephren Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Exeter, UK Age: 52 Posts: 128	Tell them "Mhz for Mhz, the Amiga pisses over your Pentium/Athlon"

13 March 2002, 06:47	#15
Minuous Coder/webmaster/gamer Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canberra/Australia Posts: 2,675	I agree with Pyromania. An important point to remember, next time you are in Amiga-advocacy mode, is that the IBM-PC was released in 1981, the Crapintosh in 1984 and the Amiga in 1985. So the Amiga is not old, the other two are old. The IBM-PC is older than the ZX Spectrum! It really shows, too, when you look at the architectures of the various machines; the Amiga is a clean design, not a kludged-together bodge. So IBM-PC wankers don't know what they are talking about when they say 'Amigas are old'. Such a line of reasoning makes no sense and is contrary to the facts. And of course, generally old games are better than new ones anyway. I have only played about 5 new games since the mid-90s that have been any good. Whereas I have hundreds of good games dating before the mid-90s.

13 March 2002, 23:41	#17
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	The whole game thing changes I guess. And the reason there were so many of the earlier games which seemed better must be in part because of the fond memories we had. But still there's something wrong. I just bought Pizza connection 2 in hopes that it would be a bit like Pizza tycoon. It was indeed a bit like it, but way too confusing and they had removed many of the great things as well. No more having a time limit for moving around. You hired thugs to go mess up competitors or gangsters to demand protection money, or reported the competitor to the police. I liked the old game where you could always make a quick buck by running a small job for the mafia, and you'd better plan how much time you needed for moving because otherwise they'd get upset with you. I also liked the subgame feel of sabotageing the opponent. But I have a feel that if I found a person who's into the newer gaming who'd actually like one of the two I'd think he'd chose pizza connection 2 because of the better graphics and more management options. And if you look at it. There are still plenty games which actually are good, but will never be classics for us.

14 March 2002, 04:48	#18
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	Hmm, I agree with Drake at some points... while Quake is classic for some newer players, it will never be a classic for us, who grown up playing really good games like Turrican . I hade a huge discussion about that with some guys in a games channle in a brazilian IRC server, and I got some conclusions The truth is that the newer generation of players aren't REAL LOVING GAMERS like we are. We like to sit, to play a game and enjoy it. I have the feeling that what the younger player needs to enjoy a game is: 1 - FANTASTIC 3D GRAPHICS. Most newer players won't even approach a game with 2d graphics, and if it's in 3D, they need to have zillions of poligons, even if they still look crap. (Argument of a guy in that channel: "Look at Max Payne... " (A game that I rather liked) "... the graphics are just great!" and then I say (Yeah, it has lots of poligons really, pushing the PC and all, but don't they look really bland?" 2 - REALISM. Newer players need a feeling that they are doing something realistic, even although they obviosuly aren't (and realism many times kills gameeplay... argument from that same guy "Max Payne is a very realistic game, look the way he moves, the locations..." me: "Yeah, very realistic the way you push the right button and you just slow down the whole world. And that's not a fucking "Cinematic effect" , this name was given just to sell the game, the slowdown actually affects the gameplay a LOT" 3 - IT HAS TO BE EASY. When I say easy, I say it has to be something the player will understand and master in 5 minutes. I think that's the main reason why all games nowadays are the same. Newer players need the feeling they are always WINNING, or else the will move to something else. Ok, a game like , say , Starcraft may take a long time to beat, but it's just a matter of repeat the same strategy over and over and over. And you can even save the game at anytime, so you can resume the game at any point you want. And you also may search internet and find lots of cheat for games. I am tired of young players come at me, and ask if I have a cheat mode for X or Y game. I even know some little kids that only plays the game if he knows the FUCKING CHEAT MODE. Take a look at the most sucessfull multiplayer games. 95% of them are just about memorizing where maps, requiring few or no skill at all. Give a game like Uridium 2 for a younger player, and he will just go and say "What the hell, those ships don't attack me the same way all the time... hey, I need to DODGE those bullets? Can't I just press a button to do it automatically? Hey, where's the cheat mode?... bah, I'll play a FPS, it's just easier to play.." That's what I say.. we LOVE games... they don't...

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