What Makes The Amiga CD32 The Best Amiga?

[PortuguesePilot]

Also, something that can't be seen on pictures or measured in colours are things like playability and fluidity. The Mega Drive's 'Street Fighter 2' (even the original non remastered version) puts every Amiga version of 'Street Fighter 2' (even the AGA ones) to absolute shame. It plays MUCH better. Heck, even the PC-Engine version of 'Street Fighter 2' embarrasses any Amiga version. Yes, that 8bit "crappy console" as Bruce Abbott called it. If that is crappy, I wonder what it makes the Amiga... ultra crappy? And I haven't spoke of the the best of the console versions, which is, IMO, the SNES version. And the best of the 16bit versions is the X68000.

Fightin' Spirit is a nice little game and a showcase of what could be done on an Amiga by expert and capable hands. Still no-one knows of it outside of the Amiga realm and it would be considered an average 1-on-1 beat'em-up on a SNES or Mega Drive and absolute rubbish on a Neo-Geo AES or CPS Changer. The absolute pinnacle of 1-on-1 fighters on the Amiga (together with Shadow Fighter and, graphically, Elfmania) would be average or rubbish on any other console. Ooops... There goes the theory that the CD32 is better than everything else.

The Amiga is a line of computers, that were once remarkable amongst the competition, became on-par with it and were then superseded. The CD32 is a consolized version of one of those computers. A bastardization, if you will. The CD32 can not be considered the best Amiga because of that. In order to fulfil its potential, it has to be re-converted back to a quasi-A1200, which basically says it all. Hey, nothing against the CD32, but I'll keep my A1200 please. You can keep your crappy little console while I'll keep my neat little computer. Thank you.

[roondar]

PC Engine is one of my favourite consoles, it's very capable. Sure, it has no dual layer display, but it can display up to 512 colours on screen which makes the games look quite nice. Some of the exclusives are great fun.

Anyway, for the record: I don't think any of the systems we're talking about are crappy. Not console, nor Amiga (CD32 or otherwise). But I do think we ought to try and be honest about what the systems managed to do. AGA Amiga's certainly could do more than what we saw*, but ultimately that's sadly just not as relevant as what was historically achieved.

*) though to be honest, even though AGA certainly got a bad deal software wise I don't think this is limited to just the (AGA) Amiga's. Most systems can do amazing things compared to what you normally see on them if enough time and energy is spend on them. Just look at what 30 years of growing coding expertise did for the Amstrad CPC.

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by roondar

PC Engine is one of my favourite consoles, it's very capable. Sure, it has no dual layer display, but it can display up to 512 colours on screen which makes the games look quite nice. Some of the exclusives are great fun.

Even if it doesn't have dual layers (well... it has a background layer and sprite layer, which is basically two layers), it is capable of remarkable feats when it comes to parallax and hardware scrolling. Have you seen Coryoon - Child of Dragon? Look at those backgounds. Look at the parallax. Lot at the colours on both background and main sprites. Look at the animations. Look at the number of objects on-screen. Loot at the speed (fps) with which all is processed... Tell me that AGA can replicate that, exactly as it is shown there? I doubt it.

[ Show youtube player ]

Heck, as I said above, here's Street Fighter 2' on the PC-Engine:

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Notice the little details that mimmick the actual arcade, all present: animated backgrounds, full parallax, nice sounds, good speed (fps), good playability, etc... What Amiga version comes close to this? All on an 8bit "crappy console"...

I wish that some people here who talk high and mighty would have a deeper knowledge about the other systems and their games before passing judgement.

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

Tell me that AGA can replicate that, exactly as it is shown there? I doubt it.

There's no real overlayed parallax though, that's just different scroll values split down the screen. AGA is perfectly capable of that

[roondar]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

Even if it doesn't have dual layers (well... it has a background layer and sprite layer, which is basically two layers), it is capable of remarkable feats when it comes to parallax and hardware scrolling. Have you seen Coryoon - Child of Dragon? Look at those backgounds. Look at the parallax. Lot at the colours on both background and main sprites. Look at the animations. Look at the number of objects on-screen. Loot at the speed (fps) with which all is processed... Tell me that AGA can replicate that, exactly as it is shown there? I doubt it.

Ah yes, when I talk about dual layer I always exclude the sprite layer because I find it confuses some people. But yeah, the PC-Engine does have two layers if you count sprites - but by that definition the Amiga/MD have three and the SNES can have as many as five

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No, I hadn't heard of that one yet. Lately been itching to play Blazing Lazers again and the brilliant versions of Salamander & R-Type though... Looks good, I'll check it out!

Heck, as I said above, here's Street Fighter 2' on the PC-Engine:

[ Show youtube player ]

Yeah, like I said - the PC-Engine is a very capable system. It's super sad that it wasn't more popular worldwide (didn't even get a real European release).

Originally Posted by DanScott

There's no real overlayed parallax though, that's just different scroll values split down the screen. AGA is perfectly capable of that

Didn't Wrath of the Demon do that style on the Amiga?

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by roondar

Didn't Wrath of the Demon do that style on the Amiga?

Indeed... Star Ray is another reasonable example... SOTB to some extent too

The SF2 conversion on PC engine is nice, but the parallax is only the floor shift. THe backgrounds don't appear to be more than the usual 1 layer, so the depth effect is kind of lost a little compared to Megadrive or SNES, that have the extra layers that give the real depth

[Retro-Nerd]

The PC-Engine colors for SF2 are great though, gameplay is top notch. Most disappointment was the music. Strange that they never released a CD version. The crappy SF 1 got one (probably the first CD console game, December 1988).

[sokolovic]

Gameplay of PC Engine version was a disaster if you had the original pad.. of course you can buy an extra 6 button pad...(but since we are still reading comments of people comllaining of the 1 button mandatory gameplay of any Amiga game....Limited pad button isn't ever taken in consideration for others machine).

[Retro-Nerd]

Of course the original release of the PC-Engine version was bundled with a 6-button pad. Yes, it was never meant to be played with the normal PC-Engine pad though its painfully possible.

[kremiso]

Do you guys know how much RAM was required to make work the original Street Fighter 2 on the X68000 port?

[sokolovic]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Of course the original release of the PC-Engine version was bundled with a 6-button pad. Yes, it was never meant to be played with the normal PC-Engine pad though its painfully possible.

I had it back in the day and it wasn't released with any pad, in France at least (I think we were the only european country to have an officialise PC Engine distribution, although games weren't at all localized).

[Retro-Nerd]

Bundled Japanese import of cause. The Avenue Pad 6 was separately released too, one week before the game itself.

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by DanScott

There's no real overlayed parallax though, that's just different scroll values split down the screen. AGA is perfectly capable of that

Exactly like that? Without compromising colour count and the number of objects on screen? I can't seem to remember any Amiga game that does it.

The rare examples I can recall in the Amiga realm of something remotely like this is Jim Power, Apache, Shadow of the Beast, Chuck Rock 2 and Agony. The first two seem to not compromise colour, but all the others look too pastel to be as impressive as Coryoon is, with grainy colours and lots of dithering. I know none of them are AGA, though. If you say it's possible, then I believe it, but out of curiosity: what game has it implemented in the same ilk or form as Coryoon does?

There are other examples, like some bonus stages of Yo! Joe!, also an OCS game. I can't recall AGA examples other than Lion King (in parts) or the recent Rygar remake that have this sort of parallax implemented, albeit not as impressively (or exuberantly) as the little aforementioned PC-Engine game. I'm not talking about simple background scrolling like say Flink or Aladdin, I'm talking about what appears to be multi-parallax that give the impression of depth and that you defined as "different scroll values split down the screen". If AGA really can do it with relative ease, as you say, it would be very interesting to actually see it done in games.

[sokolovic]

Brian the Lion AGA does have a multi layered parallaxe. Worms DC also (and layers are animated.). Overkill also.
Don't see why it is so impossible to think that AGA could do that.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

Exactly like that? Without compromising colour count and the number of objects on screen? I can't seem to remember any Amiga game that does it.

I just remembered. Doesn't the scrolling shoot em up level in T2 do a very similar effect?

Gone and checked it and it does indeed do something very similar:
[ Show youtube player ]

(in case the time index doesn't work, it starts at 45:11)

[trixster]

Originally Posted by kremiso

do you guys know how much ram was required to make work the original street fighter 2 on the x68000 port?

2mb

[DanScott]

Originally Posted by PortuguesePilot

Exactly like that? Without compromising colour count and the number of objects on screen? I can't seem to remember any Amiga game that does it.

The rare examples I can recall in the Amiga realm of something remotely like this is Jim Power, Apache, Shadow of the Beast, Chuck Rock 2 and Agony. The first two seem to not compromise colour, but all the others look too pastel to be as impressive as Coryoon is, with grainy colours and lots of dithering. I know none of them are AGA, though. If you say it's possible, then I believe it, but out of curiosity: what game has it implemented in the same ilk or form as Coryoon does?

There are other examples, like some bonus stages of Yo! Joe!, also an OCS game. I can't recall AGA examples other than Lion King (in parts) or the recent Rygar remake that have this sort of parallax implemented, albeit not as impressively (or exuberantly) as the little aforementioned PC-Engine game. I'm not talking about simple background scrolling like say Flink or Aladdin, I'm talking about what appears to be multi-parallax that give the impression of depth and that you defined as "different scroll values split down the screen". If AGA really can do it with relative ease, as you say, it would be very interesting to actually see it done in games.

Oh yeah, Chuck Rock 2 FFS!... I should have mentioned that one... I wrote that game on Amiga

Also, you might want to take a look at the horizontally scrolling shooter part of Turrican 2

Basically, all Amigas ever produced (OCS through to AGA) are very capable of scrolling each horizontal line of the screen independently... the backbone of nearly every early Amiga demo from the late 80's (think wobbling logos etc..)

If you want to see a decent implementation on AGA, then take a look at the preview of the new game Boss Machine somewhere on these forums

[ Show youtube player ]

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by DanScott

If you want to see a decent implementation on AGA, then take a look at the preview of the new game Boss Machine somewhere on these forums

[ Show youtube player ]

Very interesting indeed. I had forgotten all about it. I remember that when I first saw it I thought that the mountainous landscape looked almost the same as the one used in Lionheart. After seeing the video here, I revisited Lionheart and indeed the whole background seems to be the same, including the sky and sea, except for different colours... Lionheart also has a good example of the hardware scrolling effect we're discussing, then.

But be that as it may, I still don't think any Amiga could pull a carbon-copy of Coryoon. Do you agree with this, or do you consider it doable without compromise? Everything. Like the almost bullet-hell amount of sprites, the colours used and the fluidity (I'm guessing 25fps) at which it all moves...

Coryoon is but an example. Games like Air Zonk, Magical Chase, Super Star Soldier, Aero Blasters and Solder Blade are all very impressive and I can't see many (if any) Amiga games reach those standards.

Heck, we can even compare ports of games that exist on both systems. Aside from the already mentioned Street Fighter 2 game, compare the versions of Power Drift, Out Run and Parasol Stars on both systems and tell me which ones are better.

There's only one game that seems on par in both systems: Bomberman (AKA, Dyna Blaster on the Amiga), even though subsequent Bomberman games on the PC-Engine were even better.

The only game shared by both systems that is better on the Amiga is BC Kid, though, again, the subsequent BC Kid games on the PC-Engine use the new main sprite and are better games.

This all to say that - as I said somewhere above - the PC-Engine's graphical chipset (and how it is organized) is a little small wonder (for 1987, the year the A500 came out) that beats many 16bit systems to a pulp in spite of having an 8bit CPU and even gives the oh-so-amazing CD32 - a 32bit system(!!!) - a big run for its money...

[dreadnought]

In defense of Amiga, PCE was a Nippon product to the bone, and at the time* Japanese devs were absolutely killing it when it comes to 2D action games. So it has benefitted from having their uber-talented devs exploiting all its strengths and churning out some amazing titles. Being a console with dedicated custom hardware also did not hurt.

Conversely, Amiga's main market was Europe, and it was a home computer, so not a 100% target audience for arcade gaming. I guess these factors contributed at least in some degree to the fact that so many of our ports were inferior, when given a bit more TLC (aka publisher budgets/dev time) they could've been so much better.

*well, at any time, I suppose

[PortuguesePilot]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

In defense of Amiga, PCE was a Nippon product to the bone, and at the time* Japanese devs were absolutely killing it when it comes to 2D action games. So it has benefitted from having their uber-talented devs exploiting all its strengths and churning out some amazing titles. Being a console with dedicated custom hardware also did not hurt.

Conversely, Amiga's main market was Europe, and it was a home computer, so not a 100% target audience for arcade gaming. I guess these factors contributed at least in some degree to the fact that so many of our ports were inferior, when given a bit more TLC (aka publisher budgets/dev time) they could've been so much better.

*well, at any time, I suppose

Yes, I know. The whole Japan vs USA vs Europe gaming scenes has been discussed before and I do agree that it counts for the overall quality of the games we got. Even the aforementioned Street Fighter 2 game is a prime example. All the best ports we are all glorifying had direct Capcom assistance and access to the original arcade's dev assets and even source code. I doubt that US Gold developers could brag about that...

But, even so, we can only compare what is, not what could have been. So, again, things are what they are.