Hardital "Insider 2" (and similar trapdoor/slow RAM expansions) in WinUAE

[Supamax]

Hi,
this is probably not really a problem... but who knows?

I still have a nice "Insider 2" (made in Italy, by Hardital) 2 MB RAM expansion card for the A500. It's an internal expansion, for the trapdoor slot.
It's what's called "slow" ram in WinUAE.
There's the card, some wires and a Gary adapter with a jumper (for the old/new Agnus).

There can be two cases:
a) If it's fitted in an A500 with the old Fat Agnus (8371), the total RAM will be around 2.3 MB (512 Kb CHIP + 1.8 MB SLOW)

b) if it's fitted in an A500 with the Big Agnus (8372), the total RAM will be 2.5 MB (512 KB CHIP + 512 KB CHIP + 1.5 MB SLOW).

Now, in WinUAE I can replicate case a) (A500 quick, KS1.2, 512KB chip, 1.8MB slow), but I cannot replicate case b).
I get a yellow screen and the virtual Amiga doesn't boot up.

I tried many options (selecting "ECS Agnus" and/or selecting "Generic" chipset or "A500" chipset or "A500+" chipset...) but no way.
If I set 1 MB chip + 1.5 MB slow I get the yellow screen.

How can I replicate case b)?

EDIT: I'm using WinUAE 1.6.2 Public Beta 11 (but I don't think it depends on WinUAE's version)

[Photon]

I want the Hardgenital expansion !!!

*quickly buggers off*

[Photon]

ps. all (?) >512K Agnus A500's had kick 2.0... right? Try using that.

Edit: just tested. Kick 1.3 and 2.04 work, but 1.2 gives yellow screen. That behavior might match real Amigas, in which case WinUAE is very good I've owned an A500 (not +) with a bigger Agnus, but it sure had kick 1.3. Never heard of one sold with kick 1.2!?!?!

[Toni Wilen]

I guess the problem is 0xD80000-0xDBFFFF area (last 0.3M in 1.8M slow ram expansions)

Gary based Amigas normally maps it to "nothing", but I guess this expansion includes Gary adapter that maps it to "something", even in less than 1.8M mode.

"nothing" = 68000 sees previous data in bus and this must confuse KS 1.2 memory detection routine, it detects RAM there (Supervisor stack goes to highest available fast ram address which explains the yellow screen..)

Mapping something ROM-like (only zeros or ones or something) should fix this. (of course only in 1.5M mode)

EDIT: can't make it work even if mapping "something" in last 0.3M area. Is this card really supposed to work with KS 1.2 in 1.5M mode?

[Photon]

Was about to comment "Well, does real hardware work like that?" - I'm not sure I'd like emulating these weird rigs, rigs that were never sold - at least until there's confirmation it works on a real machine.

My work machine is an old Agnus, and can use kick 1.2/1.3/2.0 in it. So I could test it out if you want on a real rig. But I guess that would only test case a.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Photon

ps. all (?) >512K Agnus A500's had kick 2.0... right? Try using that.

Edit: just tested. Kick 1.3 and 2.04 work, but 1.2 gives yellow screen. That behavior might match real Amigas, in which case WinUAE is very good I've owned an A500 (not +) with a bigger Agnus, but it sure had kick 1.3. Never heard of one sold with kick 1.2!?!?!

VERY interesting! I didn't think it could be related to KS version.
In fact, my real Amiga has KS 1.2, so I couldn't test case b on it.

Originally Posted by Photon

My work machine is an old Agnus, and can use kick 1.2/1.3/2.0 in it. So I could test it out if you want on a real rig. But I guess that would only test case a.

Yes, if you have an old Agnus (so you haven't 1MB CHIP RAM) you cannot test case b.

[Toni Wilen]

Chip ram size does not matter, only need exactly 1.5M slow ram.

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Chip ram size does not matter, only need exactly 1.5M slow ram.

You're right, sorry .
I don't know, however, if a 1.5MB trapdoor/slow expansion RAM card was ever marketed... if not, it would be nonsense to consider/fix this config in WinUAE: 512KB chip + 1,5MB slow. Am I right?

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

EDIT: can't make it work even if mapping "something" in last 0.3M area. Is this card really supposed to work with KS 1.2 in 1.5M mode?

Hmmm, I don't know (I always used it as 1.8M expansion, since I have the old Agnus and KS 1.2).

EDIT: I read the Insider 2 manual a few minutes ago, and there are no references to KS versions, so I don't know if it was supposed to work with KS 1.2 in 1.5M mode.

By the way, address locations of the Insider 2 in 1.8M mode are:
0xC00000...0xDBFFFF, for a total of 1.835.008 bytes (2MB minus 256KB)

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

I guess the problem is 0xD80000-0xDBFFFF area (last 0.3M in 1.8M slow ram expansions)

Gary based Amigas normally maps it to "nothing", but I guess this expansion includes Gary adapter that maps it to "something", even in less than 1.8M mode.

Yes, it includes a Gary adapter (see my first post in this thread).

Wait, Toni, I forgot to specify something (dunno if it may be of any help):

In case a) the user has to:
- fit the card in
- fit the Gary adapter in (between Gary and the A500 mainboard)
- set the JP1 jumper on the Gary adapter to the "1.8" position

In case b) the user has to:
- fit the card in
- fit the Gary adapter in (between Gary and the A500 mainboard)
- set the JP1 jumper on the Gary adapter to the "2.0" position
- locate the JP2 jumper/pads on the A500 mainboard (it's between the 68000 CPU and the ROM chip)
- cut the connection between the 2 lower pads of JP2
- solder the included wire to the Gary adapter (pin "INS") and to the upper pad of JP2

Perhaps this will ring a bell in your head...?

[Photon]

I'm still into the "Kick 1.2 doesn't support that hardware" - but it will be good news for me if it does - cos then my OCS A500 could use one of those in Kick 1.2 mode

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Photon

I'm still into the "Kick 1.2 doesn't support that hardware"

I agree with you, have the same feeling . However, read below.

- but it will be good news for me if it does - cos then my OCS A500 could use one of those in Kick 1.2 mode

Remember that "case a)" was my A500's case. I mean, I have a 2.3MB A500 with KS1.2. Ok, I don't have 1MB chip RAM, but I have 512(chip)+1.8(slow). Not bad .
So your OCS A500 could perfectly use "one of those" in Kick 1.2 mode .
The only limit is that you'll not fully see the extra 2MB, but only 1.8MB (1.75MB, to be precise). There are 256KB unused.

[Photon]

Yeah, that's the "clock area". Reserved.

Well, I think you'll get help to make it work. If for some reason it doesn't work, or if you don't want to experiment/use it anymore, you can sell it to me

Or is it being used already, and you only want to replicate it in WinUAE? Well, anyway... would be cool to have one in my A500...

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by Photon

Or is it being used already, and you only want to replicate it in WinUAE? Well, anyway... would be cool to have one in my A500...

Yes, it works perfectly .
I always used it in 1.8MB mode, because I have 512KB chip RAM and the old Agnus (8371).

And... yes again, I was asking about "replicating" it in WinUAE.

[andreas]

Please consider that there is no "Kick 1.2" as such, but there are both Kick 1.2/33.166 and Kick 1.2/33.180!

This *may* as well make a difference as well; at least it did on my A1000. (OT: some games didn't even work on the earlier KS)

As far as my KS 1.x knowledge goes, you should be able to determine the version of your hardware KS by using the "ver" command. (needs version.library in libs)

[Photon]

33.166 was A1000 only. So kick 1.2 in an A500 means 33.180.

[andreas]

Well, sounds plausible. Been just in order to not forget about any detail when trying to track down the issue

[Supamax]

Originally Posted by andreas

Been just in order to not forget about any detail when trying to track down the issue

Of course, this is the right way to proceed! Thanks