Help support crowdfund for "Retro Computer inspired USB PC Keyboards & Mice"

[stevelord]

Having looked at it, I can't understand why someone would want to go half-arsed on this. If they really wanted to do the Amiga experience, at least make a decent keyboard that matches an Amiga one.

It just looks like simulant has taken logos of companies he doesn't have the rights for and slapped them on generic devices. I know that's not the case, but it's how it comes across to the untrained eye.

The CD32 look comes across as interesting in it's own right. The Amiga one looks nothing like an Amiga keyboard. Honestly with the IP vultures I'd question the risk associated with trying to generate revenue using the Amiga name.

[simulant]

Originally Posted by stevelord

Having looked at it, I can't understand why someone would want to go half-arsed on this. If they really wanted to do the Amiga experience, at least make a decent keyboard that matches an Amiga one.

It just looks like simulant has taken logos of companies he doesn't have the rights for and slapped them on generic devices. I know that's not the case, but it's how it comes across to the untrained eye.

The CD32 look comes across as interesting in it's own right. The Amiga one looks nothing like an Amiga keyboard. Honestly with the IP vultures I'd question the risk associated with trying to generate revenue using the Amiga name.

Hi thanks Steve, we're not going to please everyone that's for sure. It may look that way to the untrained eye as you say, but making hardware is a really difficult task. If we made just an replica of a particular keyboard (say an Amiga 4000 type for example) then we would need full IP copyright permission, we'd have to reach a massive funding goal just for that one replica. The only way to reduce the factory injection mould cost is to make a mould that can make lots of keyboards and not just a replica, then we can get hopefully a bigger community of Spectrum, Amstrad etc users in too to help achieve the large cost needed.


If for example we had to reach £100,000+ for an A4000 replica case for our injection moulding and then do 3,000 Minimum order with the factory, pay for freight etc etc it would be much much harder. And I don't know if there would be enough A4000 or big box Amiga users then to reach the funding goal.


So yes compromises have been made, and I've tried to please IP holders too by giving them heads up and asking permission etc. It will be hard to reach the funding goal even with these compromises, but at least now we are with Kickstarter if the total isn't met then everyone will automatically get their pledge money back and refunded. So there is nothing to lose if you just want a better matching keyboard and mouse that what is currently out there or something just to sit alongside your classic or modern hardware that at least has a different look about it to using a Microsoft keyboard etc etc.

[stevelord]

Originally Posted by simulant

It may look that way to the untrained eye as you say, but making hardware is a really difficult task.

Having made and shipped hardware on kickstarter before, I recognise the troubles and don't envy you, but surely you must understand the fall you're setting yourself up for here. People buying this Amiga keyboard are going to wake up £60 out of pocket with a regular PC keyboard and mouse with nothing more than an Amiga logo on it. Some of them will be very upset after they find out what a big box Amiga keyboard actually looks like. If you go down this road you'll have to figure out a way to deal with that.

Originally Posted by simulant

If we made just an replica of a particular keyboard (say an Amiga 4000 type for example) then we would need full IP copyright permission

Whether you use a logo, logotype or technology you have to have permission from the rights holders, both from a patent and trademark perspective. Rights are rights. I struggled to understand what you mean by full IP copyright permission, but trust that you're not trying to imply a distinction between permission to do something that looks a little like something versus a lot like something.

Originally Posted by simulant

we'd have to reach a massive funding goal just for that one replica.

It seems like you're saying that because doing it properly isn't commercially viable slapping an Amiga logo on a PC keyboard and selling it as Amiga inspired because it's cheaper to produce would be fine.

Originally Posted by simulant

So there is nothing to lose if you just want a better matching keyboard and mouse that what is currently out there or something just to sit alongside your classic or modern hardware that at least has a different look about it to using a Microsoft keyboard etc etc.

And this is the crux of the issue. It appears that you think by getting permission to put an Amiga logo on a keyboard nothing like one, that it's somehow a better idea than choosing between doing it properly or not at all. You know your cost base, but the people looking at this from outside don't.

It may cost you a lot to produce, but it looks like a cheap keyboard with a logo stuck on it to drive the price up. That's not a place you want to be. Imagine if the Checkmate 1500 was a rebadged Atari Falcon case because it might shift a few more units with a different logo slapped on it.

If it's not practical to do an Amiga keyboard, then it might be better to take it off the list and revisit later than deal with the upset afterwards. It's clear you've put a lot of effort in thus far. Your desire to have multiple designs while cutting corners is at risk of cheapening the full set. The Amiga name deserves better than this, and you deserve better than looking like you're ripping off the name for personal gain. I know that's not what you're aiming for, but you're at risk of positioning yourself in the same space as Commodore USA (of the VIC-Slim and other crap PCs).

[simulant]

Originally Posted by stevelord

surely you must understand the fall you're setting yourself up for here. People buying this Amiga keyboard are going to wake up £60 out of pocket with a regular PC keyboard and mouse with nothing more than an Amiga logo on it. Some of them will be very upset after they find out what a big box Amiga keyboard actually looks like. If you go down this road you'll have to figure out a way to deal with that.

Hi Steve I agree that a replica Amiga keyboard is a great idea for a project and A1200.net are working already on those types of projects. The idea of this project isn't to replicate but to pay tribute to. That's the whole idea. I think you've missed the point as you've maybe thought I am trying to make a genuine product instead of something that is inspired by the computers I grew up with as a kid that I can use on a modern PC or otherwise if I want to. This is all pretty clear on the project page and explained. Also any Amiga owners who have a big box Amiga and no keyboard at least have something here that doesn't look too out of place, they will already know what an original keyboard looks like and know the price of them. This is a much cheaper alternative.

Originally Posted by stevelord

Whether you use a logo, logotype or technology you have to have permission from the rights holders, both from a patent and trademark perspective. Rights are rights. I struggled to understand what you mean by full IP copyright permission, but trust that you're not trying to imply a distinction between permission to do something that looks a little like something versus a lot like something.

Yes as I say in the project I have paid for and met with trademark lawyers. Part of the keyboard having a different look is to avoid infringement and "passing off" problems. This is simply a keyboard and mice to match rather than a replica - it is for your new/original machine or fpga etc.

Originally Posted by stevelord

It seems like you're saying that because doing it properly isn't commercially viable slapping an Amiga logo on a PC keyboard and selling it as Amiga inspired because it's cheaper to produce would be fine.

No that's not what I am saying at all. What I am saying though is this is a cheaper solution for users who want *something* to at least match and work nicely. Surely that is better than not having any input devices available?? Back in the day 3rd part manufacturers would make hardware for classic machines - nobody ever criticised them for making an option available because it wasn't official or looked exactly the same. The Vampire standalone doesn't look like a classic machine for example.

Originally Posted by stevelord

And this is the crux of the issue. It appears that you think by getting permission to put an Amiga logo on a keyboard nothing like one, that it's somehow a better idea than choosing between doing it properly or not at all. You know your cost base, but the people looking at this from outside don't.

Again I'm not sure where what you mean here, it seems like you're hating on people having an option available to them? To say I'm not "doing it properly" doesn't make sense, as that depends on your aim and I've already said I'm not trying to make a replica. This is done properly and is a great quality keyboard - certainly better than most of the original retro computer keyboards were back in the day, they didn't always have the best typing experience hehe.

Originally Posted by stevelord

It may cost you a lot to produce, but it looks like a cheap keyboard with a logo stuck on it to drive the price up. That's not a place you want to be. Imagine if the Checkmate 1500 was a rebadged Atari Falcon case because it might shift a few more units with a different logo slapped on it.

It is a very good quality keyboard actually, and has been further improved again before launch. With 3 million button press stress testing and metal shielding and stronger plastic casing. Also nothing has been "stuck on" anything. We're not using stickers or transfers, this is injection moulded and factory printed professionally by a manufacturer that also make keyboards for big brands. Yes the Checkmate is a really fantastic product I agree, if it had an Atari badge for Falcon fans they may actually appreciate an option is there for them (although the point of that case is to take your old motherboard and give it a home that fits correctly, plus the modern solutions), it would need to have the right fixings and options there for Atari motherboards and peripherals of course with correct colour matching for keyboards and monitors

Originally Posted by stevelord

If it's not practical to do an Amiga keyboard, then it might be better to take it off the list and revisit later than deal with the upset afterwards.

It may be practical for A1200.net or another project creator. It is just I don't personally want to create a project to make replica keyboards. I've also explained what you get and shown photos in a lot of details so I'm unsure why anyone would be disappointed. If anything they should have a nice surprise on receiving it if you think it is cheap looking, as in reality it isn't cheap at all and is lovely to use.

Originally Posted by stevelord

It's clear you've put a lot of effort in thus far. Your desire to have multiple designs while cutting corners is at risk of cheapening the full set. The Amiga name deserves better than this, and you deserve better than looking like you're ripping off the name for personal gain. I know that's not what you're aiming for, but you're at risk of positioning yourself in the same space as Commodore USA (of the VIC-Slim and other crap PCs).

I've certainly not cut any corners - what makes you say this? Personally I think the Amiga name deserves to move on and keep new products in the market and have cheaper hardware options available for users other than having to buy £200 yellowed originals from ebay? Surely? As far as the Vic-Slim and Commodore USA etc this doesn't hurt the originals, they'll always be there in our history. I'm just trying to offer some simple input solutions at affordable prices... I love your passion though even if we don't fully see eye-to-eye. May I ask what products you brought to market on crowdfunding, is there anything I can currently back?

[stevelord]

Originally Posted by simulant

I think you've missed the point as you've maybe thought I am trying to make a genuine product instead of something that is inspired by the computers I grew up with as a kid that I can use on a modern PC or otherwise if I want to. This is all pretty clear on the project page and explained.

Yes I think you're right in that I had perceived this as being an attempt to make a genuine product. I've read the product page, that still comes across.

Originally Posted by simulant

Back in the day 3rd part manufacturers would make hardware for classic machines - nobody ever criticised them for making an option available because it wasn't official or looked exactly the same. The Vampire standalone doesn't look like a classic machine for example.

They generally didn't have a first-party Amiga logo on the product making them look like official Commodore or Amiga Technologies products.

Originally Posted by simulant

Again I'm not sure where what you mean here, it seems like you're hating on people having an option available to them?

I'm not hating on anyone. I've deliberately gone out of my way not to be aggro. People get passionate about the Amiga, and the use of the mark implies an officially sanctioned product.

Originally Posted by simulant

I've certainly not cut any corners - what makes you say this?

When I say cut corners I mean have identical keyboards for different systems. Each system has individual requirements, e.g. the Del and Help keys on the Amiga, but it's the same keyboard underneath for all of them. Another corner (that I'll admit is subjective) is that you've picked a membrane keyboard rather than a mechanical one. Again, you may have reasons for this, but I struggle to see how that equates to a retail value of £60 for someone buying one.

Originally Posted by simulant

May I ask what products you brought to market on crowdfunding, is there anything I can currently back?

A few years back I designed, built and shipped an electronics starter kit on kickstarter called the HIDIOT. Nothing currently available to back but I'm working on a self-build home computer project with capabilities between the ZX Spectrum and Amiga, which probably won't be crowdfunded.


I don't want our discussion to detract from your compaign, so I'll bail out here. Needless to say best of luck.

[Valken]

I love the CPC colored version but I want it for my PC! Actually, I just want colored keycaps for my BLACK Logitech PC KB and run it with WinUAE.

Good luck with your project!

[simulant]

Originally Posted by stevelord

Yes I think you're right in that I had perceived this as being an attempt to make a genuine product. I've read the product page, that still comes across.






They generally didn't have a first-party Amiga logo on the product making them look like official Commodore or Amiga Technologies products.





I'm not hating on anyone. I've deliberately gone out of my way not to be aggro. People get passionate about the Amiga, and the use of the mark implies an officially sanctioned product.







When I say cut corners I mean have identical keyboards for different systems. Each system has individual requirements, e.g. the Del and Help keys on the Amiga, but it's the same keyboard underneath for all of them. Another corner (that I'll admit is subjective) is that you've picked a membrane keyboard rather than a mechanical one. Again, you may have reasons for this, but I struggle to see how that equates to a retail value of £60 for someone buying one.





A few years back I designed, built and shipped an electronics starter kit on kickstarter called the HIDIOT. Nothing currently available to back but I'm working on a self-build home computer project with capabilities between the ZX Spectrum and Amiga, which probably won't be crowdfunded.


I don't want our discussion to detract from your compaign, so I'll bail out here. Needless to say best of luck.

Hi thanks again for the reply.


Yes 3rd part things don't generally include a logo however we are happy to remove it as I've said. The reason we would like it is not to say anything is by Amiga, but rather so the keyboard and mouse match the computer better if a user is doing a build or using it with a classic machine. Most backer feedback has been they'd rather keep it so far. It's just about aesthetics really and preferring a better match-up as best we can


Also the keyboard isn't £60 it is £40, and I could see how not using different case designs may be seen as cutting corners but the reality is down to cost and being to be able to release it at all. If we made different case moulds this just wouldn't be achievable (at least not by me currently with the quotes and factories I'm in contact with - hopefully someone else can do it in the future though). Again it comes down to at least there being an option for people which is better than not having anything available to them for custom builds and emulation too.


I realise your points come from passion though and I love a bit of passion. I have plenty too


Your projects sound great and I'll keep an eye out for them, let me know if you get the self-built computer finished or available.

[simulant]

Originally Posted by Valken

I love the CPC colored version but I want it for my PC! Actually, I just want colored keycaps for my BLACK Logitech PC KB and run it with WinUAE.

Good luck with your project!

Great thanks for the good wishes and I appreciate your support

[torturedutopian]

Hi ! Just stumbled upon it. It seems it's gonna be difficult :-) But actually I didn't read about it before, maybe we should try to spread the word on more websites, next time...
Would love to use it with my FPGA Amiga. Do you plan to use microswitches for the keys ?

[sparhawk]

Originally Posted by idrougge

And oh, it's also Acorn, Amstrad, etc. So it's just a money-grabbing scheme aimed at gullible retro enthusiasts?

Don't see the Moneygrabbing here. You don't have to buy them. I for one, like the idea, because with emulators I always wished that there were keyboards with the real layouts available. In some cases it might not be neccessary, but it would be cool if C64 and Spectrum keyboards were also available, as they have very special keys and characters. From the pictures, it looks like most of the keyboards are pretty close to PC keyboard layout anyway.

[simulant]

Hi thanks torturedutopian and sparhawk for the kind words!! Yes please back the project or let others know. We only have a few days left now and it doesn't look like we'll make the goal unfortunately however I'll still be in touch with backers if we don't meet the target to let them all know how I plan to move forward and still supply these input devices.

It is a risk free back as no money will be charged if we don't meet the target.

Thanks again !!

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by sparhawk

Don't see the Moneygrabbing here. You don't have to buy them. I for one, like the idea, because with emulators I always wished that there were keyboards with the real layouts available.

But they don't have the real layout. At all. It's just a modern PC keyboard with a standard PC layout.

[Hewitson]

A PS/2 "Amiga" keyboard which doesn't have an Amiga layout and doesn't plug into a real Amiga? I'm sorry, but like several others have said, I just don't see the point. It doesn't even look like a quality keyboard in my opinion. I'd prefer a $10 Logitech to be perfectly honest.

Hope you've got a good lawyer.

[torturedutopian]

I think the point is to use it with regular computers and FPGA machines, and to make it look closer to an Amiga keyboard but without "losing" any PC key not to break compatibility with anything.
Maybe there is something to work out to bundle it with new FPGA Amigas but indeed its layout would have to be closer to the original. But if we add this + microswitches keys, it will be much more expensive...
My "regular" PC keyboard with microswitches, not even a gaming one, cost me 80€ (Cherry MX Board 3.0), and it's considered kinda cheap for this kind of keyboard.

[simulant]

Originally Posted by torturedutopian

I think the point is to use it with regular computers and FPGA machines, and to make it look closer to an Amiga keyboard but without "losing" any PC key not to break compatibility with anything.
Maybe there is something to work out to bundle it with new FPGA Amigas but indeed its layout would have to be closer to the original. But if we add this + microswitches keys, it will be much more expensive...
My "regular" PC keyboard with microswitches, not even a gaming one, cost me 80€ (Cherry MX Board 3.0), and it's considered kinda cheap for this kind of keyboard.

Hi yes that is exactly the point. These aren't supposed to look like replicas, just match better than what is out there.


I've had a lot of feedback from people angry saying I've "just put a sticker on" or they're "$10 keyboards" or such and those comments are just completely incorrect. They cost a lot to have made, they ARE very good quality, and there are not stickers or anything slapped on, they're printed in a factory and use colour-matched injection plastics.


Also there have been comments about lawyers or lawsuits and such - but again I've made sure to make all the brand owners aware and check with them. I'm not really sure what else I can do to please the critics really. But I know you can't please everyone.


Anyway I've tried my best and the campaign is nearly finished so I apologise to anyone that has been upset by the project. I have only ever tried to produce something that I actually want myself