21 July 2019, 19:29 | #581 | |
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P.S.: I still have my 486DX4, BTW (now upgraded to an AMD 5x86-150 with 16MB EDO RAM, a CD-ROM drive and an 1.2GB IDE-HDD) and it absolutely pales compared to my A1200. It definitely hasn't aged as well. Last edited by PortuguesePilot; 21 July 2019 at 19:36. |
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21 July 2019, 22:43 | #582 |
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@demolition & @PortuguesePilot : +1
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21 July 2019, 23:29 | #583 | ||||
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Even the Amiga mags were talking about it at the time. The very magazine issue your numbers originate in (Amiga Format Annual 93) points out in it's 'editor blurb' that PC prices had been dropping and that this would probably start causing problems down the line. Quote:
If we take that difference into account, my prediction of dropping sales should be visible in the 1993 fiscal year results. This is so because most sales happen around Christmas, which skews the numbers significantly towards the end of the calender year (and thus into the next fiscal year). This is actually what we see, though in fairness it must be noted that this also muddles the water somewhat as FY1993 includes the whole A500+/A600/A1200 in under 6 months mess. There is also a small problem I have with these figures and that is that they only refer to a single country and don't seem to add up when looking at other numbers you can find. Such as this list of total Amiga sales world wide: 1985 - 100K 1986 - 200K 1987 - 300K 1988 - 400K 1989 - 600K 1990 - 750K 1991 - 1,0M 1992 - 390K 1993 - 155K 1994 - 50K Or this supposed total Amiga sales worldwide until 'some time' in 1993: 7.195.480. Note how none of those numbers actually agree with one another. And lastly, we don't actually have any trustworthy Amiga 1200 sales figures for the 2nd half of 1993 or the beginning of 1994. Even some of the figures for 1993 that we do have are questionable, relying on the memory of one man. Then there are other issues. Some of the figures quoted as yearly results for 1993 (such some of the numbers on www.amigahistory.plus.com) are actually quarterly results. Some are incomplete or refer to unknown periods. None are from Commodore's financial reports. The problem is that other than some snippets here and there, Commodore didn't actually tell us Amiga sales, so we don't really know all that well how many were sold. For example, the 200-249K you mentioned earlier for the A1200 is almost certainly wrong (it pretty much has to too low). The only numbers we have for the A1200 are partial figures up to some unknown moment in 1993 and refer to only two countries. Adding those up, we already get close to 240.000 units. Expecting the A1200 to essentially stop selling mid 1993 and having zero units sold in the rest of Europe & the world is very unlikely. It's no secret the numbers were lower than those of the A500. But it's also no secret that we don't know the total number sold. And that's not even getting into the whole Amiga Technologies situation (God only knows how many A1200's they managed to sell). Quote:
However, I do not agree with the sentiment the A500 would've continued selling more and more. It was clearly struggling to keep up with the competition from a technological perspective and this was widely accepted in the Amiga press at the time. The launch of the A1200 was celebrated as the Amiga finally getting back in the limelight. We can argue forever why the A1200 sold less than the A500. However, I've seen nothing to prove the A500 would've done better. You could still get the A500 (along with the A500+ and A600) well into 1993. And despite heavy discounts, those older models didn't sell any better than the A1200 did. Quote:
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22 July 2019, 00:07 | #584 |
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To me, the Amiga DIED in "real hardware" form the moment Commodore went bust, and in 1994 I was in limbo for a while, considering my next option, and looking at the cheap Multimedia PCs available in magazines. My grandfather held shares for me in some company, as a form of nest egg, and it was those I sold in order to finance my first PC, a 486SX2/50 which was Multimedia-capable, with optical drive and 4mb of memory.
DOS was a pain, as I said, and it wasn't until Windows 95 came out later that year, and I was finally able to get it, that I was able to embrace the PC lifestyle. Then I enjoyed the FPS games of the late 1990s, although for many of them, upgrades were necessary (4mb here, a DX2/66 there) and a huge upgrade I made to a 3D card PC in 1997, which I got with a student loan (which is still around and accruing interest to this day!) In fact, the only downside to owning a PC and keeping up with the latest games is the cost of upgrading, but I think this would've been even more so if I'd stayed with the Amiga, bafflingly so. And then I discovered the joys of emulation, firstly on my old Atari XL. I missed the Amiga Demoscene around the early 2000s and as soon as I heard of WinFellow, and later, WinUAE, I couldn't wait to have a look again and record the audio for burning CDs and then making MP3s of them. Then, around the mid 2010s, I took to emulation in earnest, and built a large collection of Amiga demos which I still have to this day, and love to revisit as a retro platform. I get really nostalgic for demos that are up to 30 years old. |
22 July 2019, 13:31 | #585 | |||||||
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However, I do hold my point that having to OR together two chunky buffers, a 64 colour one and a 4 shadow steps one, to achieve the same effect as using two bitplanes for shadows is such a negligible disadvantage of chunky graphics that I will consider it irrelevant. I already admitted that my "no advantages" statement was (slightly) exaggerated. I made that statement because I hardly can see a meeting room full of people discussing the next computer generation's graphics architecture in 1989, everybody being in favour of a chunky 8 bit mode until somebody steps up and says: "but what about shadow effects in 2D shooters? Aren't those slightly easier to achieve in bitplanar graphics?" and then everybody is so impressed that they decide to keep it planar for the 8 bit mode. That's why I called it "irrelevant". Quote:
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22 July 2019, 13:39 | #586 |
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The A3000 came at the height of the Amiga's popularity. It was ridiculously expensive and lacked colours and colour resolution. If it had had a chunky-AGA chipset, a cut-down version of it in 1991 might have repeated the A500's success with sales of the cut-down A3000 taking off a couple of years after initial publication just like the A500 did. That would have been in time for Doom.
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22 July 2019, 22:01 | #587 | ||||||||||
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Personally I held on a bit longer to my A1200. Partly because I really enjoyed using it (even went the whole 'Doom clone on Amiga route on my poor, overworked 68030). And partly because in 1995 I simply couldn't afford a 'proper' PC. I eventually did get one in 1997 or 1998 (I forget, it was around the time CU Amiga folded). Primarily for professional reasons, though once I had one I started playing Starcraft and the rest was history. Also got a PSX around 1997 or 1998. Good times, but in reality the Amiga was long dead by then. A 1992 design can't really compete with PC's that new. Quote:
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Don't get me wrong: the 68030 is slower here. But because they're both really slow, it doesn't really matter. Quote:
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1) If planar to chunky is bad because it slows down graphics, then chunky emulating easy to do planar features at much greater cost (your solution essentially doubles bandwidth requirements for drawing anything) is also bad. No double standards. Either c2p is no big deal because all it does is increase bandwidth requirements (which you just deemed to be irrelevant if they happen for a chunky mode screen), or this is a valid advantage because it saves masses of bandwidth. You can't have it both ways. 2) I named two main advantages and you only really responded to one of them: the smaller one. The big one is multi-layer scrolling. This is much, much cheaper to do using bitplanes (especially once you go over two layers) and was a big thing in 1989-1993. 3) We were not discussing whether or not chunky/planar should've been put in a chip and what engineers would think of this. We were discussing if planar had any advantages over chunky. Quote:
Adding a ton of pixel formats just for fun and because it was 'cheap'? Not really buying that either. Silicon is precious, adding useless features is in no one's interest - least of all engineers fighting to get funding, while working at a company that wants the cheapest possible solution. Quote:
Now... Prepare a new system for immediate launch once the 'cash cow' starts declining? Yeah, that's what they should've been working on much harder and much earlier. AAA started in 1989 and was still not finished in 1993. Personally, I've always though that the CDTV might have had something to do with that. Apparently it was a very rare thing for Commodore: a machine with a large R&D budget and management support. As I understand it, they poured tons of money into it. |
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22 July 2019, 22:48 | #588 | ||||
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But take a look for yourself if you're interested: Acutiator specification, that is probably the system Haynie talked about. Esp. chapter 6.4 is relevant here, but also the other parts are quite interesting (and that "non-existing" DSP is mentioned all over the place ). Acutiator was planned as the med-to-high end architecture mainly for AAA, but also AGA, it had hardware c2p (Akiko-style), but more importantly, a clever interface between chipmem and CPU to buffer writes, letting the CPU write to the buffer at full speed, after which it could perform other work while the data was written to chipmem, making use of burst modes. Those two alone would have solved quite a number of shortcomings of the A1200. So while the A1200 clearly was in a lower segment, there were a couple of solutions in that doc that are relevant for this topic (things that Commodore could have done rather easily to improve the A1200), that's why I wrote to this thread. I will not ramble further about the bandwidth topic, I think we just agree to disagree here. Last edited by chb; 22 July 2019 at 22:55. Reason: stylistics |
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23 July 2019, 06:22 | #589 |
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23 July 2019, 10:18 | #590 | |
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So consumers would have still bought the A500s, but the message would have been that the Amiga is still on top of the graphics game. And then release the A1200. Instead we got nothing, and moved over to PCs to play Wing Commander II and Ultima 6 with 256 colours. |
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23 July 2019, 12:53 | #591 | ||||||||
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23 July 2019, 15:43 | #592 |
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AA+ is pretty much what AGA should have been. The developer's comment quoted in the wiki-article translates to "AA+ was going to have all the things we would have done if the AA project had had higher priority and funding". IIRC Haynie said something to the effect that during some time anyone found working on an Amiga-related project was threatened to be fired immediately.
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23 July 2019, 20:43 | #593 | ||||||||||||
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"I've been thinking. It's possible that he was talking about theoretical limits - the CPU/Blitter may not have the speed to get to a 400-600MB/sec total, but perhaps the VRAM does support it (if the both ports are used to their theoretical limits). And maybe the BUS theoretically does as well. So if you put in a hypothetical CPU/Blitter combo that can push 200MB/sec or more, you'd actually get to those sort of numbers." Reading the document you've added makes that much more likely as it's filled with all sorts of theoretical options. Such as clusters of CPU's or using one or more DSP's instead of a main CPU. Don't get me wrong - those a cool ideas for 1992 if ever there were some. But they also show that this is a particular kind of document - one that talks about many options, not one that talks about a fixed design. I'd argue the document I linked (which was much newer) was closer to what they were trying to actually build. Quote:
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Still, it's been nice to dig around in old hardware. We should do that again sometime Quote:
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Frankly, if you accept the 15 or so FPS Doom might do on a fast 386 you'll have little problems accepting an Amiga running at 12 FPS. I've seen both in action, there's not much in it. Quote:
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Doing the latter would prove my point. Quote:
Here's the biggest 3D games of 1993-1996 (sales data is life-time sales, not for just the release window)*. Highest data I could find for Doom I & II says it sold about 4 million combined and about 2 million each. Wolvenstein 3D sold under 500.000 units and Quake sold about 1 million units. Duke Nukem 3D sold about 1 million units. Wing Commander 3 sold about 1 million units. Grand Prix 2 sold about a million units. Let's now look at some PC 2D games from the same era: Command and Conquer sold 3 million units. Myst sold 6 million units. Theme Park sold 3 million units. Warcraft 2 sold 2 million units. Adding in console sales figures from the same time makes it all much more clear*: Street Fighter 2 Turbo: Hyper Fighting sold 4 million copies. Final Fantasy VI sold 3 million copies. Donkey Kong Country 2 sold 5 million units. Aladdin sold over 4 million copies. Again, IMHO Doom nor 3D games killed the Amiga. A combination of consoles eating into the low end and PC's enveloping on all other markets did it it. 3D undoubtedly also damaged it, but looking at real world sales figures it's pretty clear that 3D games took a long time to dominate. It wasn't until well in the late 1990's/early 2000's that they started to seriously do well. Heck, even today 3D games are regularly outsold by 2D stuff (more so if you count '2.5D' as 3D). *) I excluded older games or games that have been sold as a pack-in. I've also excluded portable games as that would just have been unfair. Quote:
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If possible, including any and all 'overhead' for selecting the different modes, registers, whatever the video chips needs to do to get it to work basically. Preferably using whatever was known about circa 1992 and not stuff figured out later. BTW, I have no idea if what I'm asking for is complicated to calculate and don't mean to cause you work - a ballpark estimate is fine for me. Quote:
What you're describing is essentially never done while the prior product is still selling extremely well. All of these companies I mentioned (which were managed pretty effectively) only released their new products after the old ones had started to decline, which is the opposite of what Commodore saw happen. Last edited by roondar; 23 July 2019 at 20:51. |
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23 July 2019, 20:53 | #594 |
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Sorry for the double post, but the above is so big I fear this may get lost otherwise:
I'm going to cut back the length and time I spend on posts in this thread. It's taking far too much of my time and I'm apparently unable to simple say 'agree' or 'disagree' without going into great detail or looking up all sorts of data. Do like the discussion and should anyone wonder, this is nothing personal. Purely a matter of time management. I'll also still reply - just less frequently and less in depth. Last edited by roondar; 23 July 2019 at 20:57. Reason: Clarified what I meant. |
23 July 2019, 21:48 | #595 |
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Amiga 500 has better and faster graphics than pc, better sound than pc, better games than pc.
Amiga 1200 has equal but many times slower graphics than pc, equal sound, worse games than pc. Of course some fanatics will deny that, but the ugly truth about Amiga 1200 is Commodore ask too much for Amiga 1200. Amiga 1200 should have three things - chunky pixels - slots for fast ram - simple mmu to protect first page of ram Adding this will make price Amiga 1200 maybe few DM higher. But Commodore screw it and thats why they bankrupt. Lack of chunky pixels make AGA many times slower than afordable SVGA cards from 1992. Higher resolutions with more colors was too slow to be usable on Amiga 1200 without fast ram. Amiga 1200 need expensive additional hardware to add fast ram. Amiga 1200 was underpowered overpriced shit. I never regret that I sell Amiga 1200. In 1992 Amiga still has better OS than PC but Amiga hardware was worthless. |
23 July 2019, 22:26 | #596 | ||
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Not going to bother to even respond to the rest of this, it's more of the same lies, half truths and exaggeration. |
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23 July 2019, 22:33 | #597 |
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When the 1200 came out, I immediately bought one to replace the 500+ and we had a 386 too so I remember well those times.
The Amiga had still a big advantage over the PC: the Workbench when the PC was running under DOS. But their was problems. - First point was the hard drive. With the PC I was now accustomed with hard drive. And the hard drive for the A1200 was a 2"1/2 one. It was very expensive at the time compared to 3"1/2 ones. So the PC had a big advantage on this point for the price. - The second point was the resolution. We bought the Commodore multisync monitor to have access to the AGA higher resolutions modes but it was deceptive because it was falling back to lower resolutions for most of the applications. And 4 colours is very few. At the same time, the PC video cards were rapidly improving and price falling. I remember that cards was soon able to display 16 millions colours and it was affordable. Imagine 16 millions colours ! Whoua ! And yes, Doom came and it was the hype. Windows came too and the affordable Amiga was still stuck with his fixed hardware. I got a big memory expansion for the A1200 but it was very expensive compared with memory for the PC. Buying an accelerator card was unreachable, it was better to bought another PC, a 486DX2-66 which we overclocked if I remember well. The rendering time for ray-traced images was so cut down then because of the integrated math copro of the 486. And A3000/4000 were too expensive with too few advantages, same resolution as an A1200. However the Amiga kept an advantage for a long time over the PC for the sound ! Before the soundblaster card, sound cards were often incompatible with games, a nightmare. And the soundblaster was very expensive at first. Last edited by TEG; 23 July 2019 at 23:07. |
23 July 2019, 23:03 | #598 | ||||
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Haynie is quite univocal about AAA and Acutiator: Quote:
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24 July 2019, 02:41 | #599 | |||||||
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Unless you had a serious case of PC envy and just had to have the biggest drive possible, in which case it was possible to stuff a 3.5" drive into the A1200. Quote:
But if an application only needs 4 colors then what's the problem? On the PC it was a problem because applications either had to run in the desktop's resolution, or switch to DOS. On the Amiga it wasn't a problem because they could open a custom screen tailored to their needs. So why the angst? PC envy again... Quote:
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And the Amiga didn't need as much RAM as a PC for typical use anyway (try running Windows 95 in 4MB - it runs out of memory and starts swapping to the hard drive before it even gets to the desktop!). But again PC envy gets in the way. 8MB sounds much better than 4MB, even if half of it gets gobbled up by the OS. Quote:
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Last edited by Bruce Abbott; 24 July 2019 at 03:15. |
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24 July 2019, 03:12 | #600 | |
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"QTech. the Best PC Values ANYWHERE!" - US$1399 for a 486SX-25, US$2499 for a 486DX2-66. That's $1100 more for the DX2-66 CPU! In 1998 a Blizzard 1230-IV 50MHz with 8MB RAM cost £114.95 (~$192). Somewhere in between those dates it might have been possible to buy a 486DX2-66 machine for less than the cost of upgrading your A1200, but I bet you figured it was worth paying more for the PC anyway - just like all those PC owners who bought 386's around the time that the A1200 was released. |
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