new amiga 500 doom like !

[Michael]

Originally Posted by trixster

Divide the reading by 50, this will give you your framerate. This is explained earlier in this thread and on the release video comments.

And how is that supposed to work ? 1.50 / 50 ?
Maybe 50 / 1.50 = 33 FPS ?

Originally Posted by trixster

This is a system friendly demo!

My point is, as many other demos, should start nicely from any system and return to it on exit. One exception is when resources are limited, then shutdown OS and do the fun approach is acceptable.


Currently requires a bit of fiddling, disabling of caches, booting without startup. Just hoping it will be more user friendly.

[rabidgerry]

@Michael

My exit button was greyed out, I could not exit the demo properly at all.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

@Michael

My exit button was greyed out, I could not exit the demo properly at all.

Same here. But rebooting only takes a few seconds, so...

[Mathesar]

Originally Posted by Michael

Maybe 50 / 1.50 = 33 FPS ?

That's the way to calculate it yes. The number is the number of frames it takes to calculate a new frame.

[modrobert]

The chaingun was fun (secret room), it runs really smooth on my stock A1200 with fastram, getting between 1.70 and 2.12 on that top left counter, mostly around 1.85, so roughly 27 FPS then. Running the .exe from workbench now, floppy tested working also.

[Mathesar]

Also forgot to mention, but the sound effects have improved a lot since the "sound" video. In fact, they are really clean now.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Same here. But rebooting only takes a few seconds, so...

True, but still a pain in the arse.

Did you get any sounds?

[rothers]

This is made for the A500, I dunno why some people are making a thing about it not running on Frankensteins's 'Amiga'. I'm sure you can run the actual Doom or even quake!

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by Mathesar

Also forgot to mention, but the sound effects have improved a lot since the "sound" video. In fact, they are really clean now.

Yup, we did a complete sfx replacement after that initial first implementation, (pretty much the same as we did with the gfx). KK created a brand new system for sfx manipulation and composition (similar to what a tracker does but on a text basis) after several discussions we had. I also provided the new sfx. KK plans to do a new video about that topic soon

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by rothers

This is made for the A500, I dunno why some people are making a thing about it not running on Frankensteins's 'Amiga'. I'm sure you can run the actual Doom or even quake!

pretty stupid comment, why would I not want another Amiga game to run?

When I asked KK ages ago about A1200 he said it should run fine so can't blame anyone for expecting it to work. And the demo does work mostly, albeit with some jiggery pokery.

I'm not sure if having an accelerator in my A1200 means I have "Frankenstein's" Amiga but I don't think it would run Quake and I know it runs Doom but I've played Doom lots, where as this is an exciting and fresh and impressive new FPS game that I don't want to miss out on.

[Tsak]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

I'm not sure if having an accelerator in my A1200 means I have "Frankenstein's" Amiga but I don't think it would run Quake and I know it runs Doom but I've played Doom lots, where as this is an exciting and fresh and impressive new FPS game that I don't want to miss out on.

I think accelerator owners (despite the game specifically targeting to lowest common denominator) are prime candidates for such a game. Probably most Amiga/first person shooter fans would definitely be the ones with accelerated machines so wanting to also get Dread shouldn't be surprising.

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

When I asked KK ages ago about A1200 he said it should run fine so can't blame anyone for expecting it to work. And the demo does work mostly, albeit with some jiggery pokery.

Well it does work fine on plain 1200 though, doesn't it? Given 040s and 060s known incompatibilities with plenty old Amiga games (we've been much spoiled by whdload btw) and how much Dread pushes the limits of machines like a500, such issues shouldn't be a surprise either. I think @rothers' point was that it has been made clear from the start the main focus here will be a500 (and other vanilla or mildly accelerated machines), so that's where the most work and attention went indeed.

Other than that it's all quite understandable. I expect in the future issues like that to be ironed out. Both the engine and the game have a long way to go to be completed and further optimised anyway.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

True, but still a pain in the arse.

Pressing 3 keys at once is a 'pain the arse'? If it was my PC then I would say yes, because it takes ~2 minutes to boot into a usable state. But my A1200 only takes 14 seconds so it's not a big deal, and rebooting ensures that the game didn't leave anything behind after quitting. Compare that to my PCs, which often take several minutes to settle down while they clean up virtual memory etc.

Perhaps you are not happy with games that don't quit back to the Workbench, even though the vast majority of Amiga games don't. But this is not a game, it's just a technology demo to give you feel for what the game could play like. You should be happy that KK/Altair released a demo as complete as this that works on an A1200 at all.

Did you get any sounds?

Yes.

However some graphical glitches occur if the 68030 and FastRAM are on, which implies other hardware could also have issues. I prefer to disable the Blizzard 1230-IV because the demo works better without FastRAM, and faster than the 030 with FastRAM disabled!

[freehand]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Pressing 3 keys at once is a 'pain the arse'? If it was my PC then I would say yes, because it takes ~2 minutes to boot into a usable state. But my A1200 only takes 14 seconds so it's not a big deal, and rebooting ensures that the game didn't leave anything behind after quitting. Compare that to my PCs, which often take several minutes to settle down while they clean up virtual memory etc.

Perhaps you are not happy with games that don't quit back to the Workbench, even though the vast majority of Amiga games don't. But this is not a game, it's just a technology demo to give you feel for what the game could play like. You should be happy that KK/Altair released a demo as complete as this that works on an A1200 at all.

Yes.

However some graphical glitches occur if the 68030 and FastRAM are on, which implies other hardware could also have issues. I prefer to disable the Blizzard 1230-IV because the demo works better without FastRAM, and faster than the 030 with FastRAM disabled!

Why are you always comparing your PC ? mine certainly does not take that time.

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by Tsak

Well it does work fine on plain 1200 though, doesn't it? Given 040s and 060s known incompatibilities with plenty old Amiga games (we've been much spoiled by whdload btw) and how much Dread pushes the limits of machines like a500, such issues shouldn't be a surprise either. I think @rothers' point was that it has been made clear from the start the main focus here will be a500 (and other vanilla or mildly accelerated machines), so that's where the most work and attention went indeed.

You get my point though? I know it was designed with A500 in mind and what it has achieved on that is totally amazing and all credit going to KK and all involved.

But why the hell wouldn't I want a piece of that pie? Of course I want it, it looks amazing and what little I played I know I will enjoy so I want it on A1200 if there is even a slim chance of it like I'm sure a lot of people do.

Yes you are right, we are spoiled with WHD load and like it or not, that is the standard the vast majority is used to nowadays. That standard being, major compatibility for like 99% games spreading over all the Amiga's. So once a bench mark is reached like that, it's hard to accept anything less.

Part of why I got back into Amiga was the enticement of that very aspect. I was now able to play games from A1200 + A500 and more under one roof. I simply couldn't pass up on that.

However I do understand when things don't always work, but it doesn't stop me wanting to try and get them working if there are ways of doing so.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Pressing 3 keys at once is a 'pain the arse'? If it was my PC then I would say yes, because it takes ~2 minutes to boot into a usable state. But my A1200 only takes 14 seconds so it's not a big deal, and rebooting ensures that the game didn't leave anything behind after quitting. Compare that to my PCs, which often take several minutes to settle down while they clean up virtual memory etc.

Perhaps you are not happy with games that don't quit back to the Workbench, even though the vast majority of Amiga games don't. But this is not a game, it's just a technology demo to give you feel for what the game could play like. You should be happy that KK/Altair released a demo as complete as this that works on an A1200 at all.

Yes.

However some graphical glitches occur if the 68030 and FastRAM are on, which implies other hardware could also have issues. I prefer to disable the Blizzard 1230-IV because the demo works better without FastRAM, and faster than the 030 with FastRAM disabled!

Yes three Keys, 14 seconds, and having to open programs up again is a pain in the arse (minor inconvenience) simply to exit out of a demo.

2mins for your PC to boot? Perhaps a solid state drive might be a worthwhile upgrade then? My pc boots in about 30 seconds. Also if I run a demo I don't have to reboot my pc again which is nice

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by freehand

Why are you always comparing your PC ? mine certainly does not take that time.

Because it illustrates a difference in philosophy between the two platforms.

Amiga games have always been designed to take over the machine and require a reboot on exit, and Amiga users are generally comfortable with that. One reason they are comfortable is that Amiga OS was designed to be lightweight. As such it does not have memory protection, use virtual memory or require that programs be relocatable while in memory, so memory fragmentation and even (gasp!) corruption can occur. This is not considered a problem though because a quick reboot cleans everything out, just like the other 'home' computers of the day that we were familiar with. And like those other home computers the Amiga's OS is mostly in ROM, so it is instantly available and cannot be corrupted by an 'improper' shutdown.

But why compare that to the PC? Because PCs are what everyone uses these days, so even if they don't think so they are unconsciously comparing it to their PC. They don't like rebooting because PC's traditionally have taken a long time to boot, from the early days of the original XT/AT systems (which took ages to test their memory etc.) to Windows 95 and later versions which have complex hardware to detect and a huge amount of stuff to load, and more stuff to 'put away' when shutting down. Windows reduces the pain by caching core OS files etc., but even with a blindingly fast system it still takes a while. And of course we all know that Windows doesn't like a hard reset, and tends to complain when we are forced to do it.

To put it bluntly, complaining about having to reboot makes you a PC apologist. Real Amiga fans don't think it is a problem.

I can well believe that your PC doesn't take as long as mine to boot. I mean, it only has a 2.8GHz dual-core Pentium D, 1GB of RAM and a 280GB hard drive - so of course it will be dog slow even though I am running the 'lightweight' (compared to Wndows 10) Windows XP. Makes you wonder how an Amiga with a miserable 0.014GHz single core processor and 0.002GB of RAM manages to run at all!

But why am I using such an ancient 'under-powered' system?

1. Because I hate Windows 10 and refuse to 'upgrade' to it.

2. Because I have my PC set up the way I like it, with many programs that can't be transferred to a new system due to licensing issues.

3. Because I can't justify spending NZ$2000+ for a reasonable desktop PC when I don't need to (or even can afford to when my total income for last year was only NZ$12000).

4. Because why not? I drive a 10 year old car, live in a 40 year old house and most of my other electronic devices are at least 10 years old, yet somehow they still manage to do the job.

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

2mins for your PC to boot? Perhaps a solid state drive might be a worthwhile upgrade then? My pc boots in about 30 seconds. Also if I run a demo I don't have to reboot my pc again which is nice

30 seconds is still more than twice as long as my A1200 takes, and I didn't have to install an SSD to do it. Also my Amiga only takes 0 seconds to shut down, even after running tons of stuff and having programs still running with files open!

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

Yes you are right, we are spoiled with WHD load and like it or not, that is the standard the vast majority is used to nowadays.

Not all of us. I have never used it. I prefer to load games off floppy or do a proper hard drive install.

But I'm a bit weird like that. I like listening to the floppy drive chatter away as it loads stuff, heightening the anticipation and making the game more worthwhile when it finally gets going. Even worse, I love those Spectrum games that draw red/blue lines in the border and make various squawking noises while loading, starting with a title screen slowly building up to admire while the rest of the game loads over several minutes.

Some of it is nostalgia, some is wanting to stay true to the 'retro' experience, some is just doing what is familiar and some is not wanting to cheapen the experience by having thousands of games at my finger tips. This is a similar problem to what happened to the Amiga 'back in the day'. The average A500 owner here had ~500 disks of pirated games, far more than they could fully appreciate.

[Michael]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Amiga games have always been designed to take over the machine and require a reboot on exit, and Amiga users are generally comfortable with that.

This is not entirely true, originally on stock machines that were used as game systems everything ran from floppy, a reboot ans system shutdown was essential to use all the available ram.


Even then, there were plenty of games that were OS friendly and some even run in multitasking and can have their screens promoted, but that requires some extra ram, and since this should not be an issue now, software should take advantage of this when possible.


An expanded machine can take 10-15 seconds just to reset, then loading a full OS is another 30 seconds here.
A fresh win10 installation on modern PC takes less then 5 seconds from power on (old PC's are not comparebal since PC tech is supposed to be recent, eveything else = obsolete)

[rabidgerry]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

30 seconds is still more than twice as long as my A1200 takes, and I didn't have to install an SSD to do it. Also my Amiga only takes 0 seconds to shut down, even after running tons of stuff and having programs still running with files open!

Hang on are you being serious? So you are comparing startup of a modern PC (actually my PC is 10 yrs old) to an Amiga 1200?

The very comparison is ludicrous given what you get from a modern PC compared to our dear old Amiga so by that standard the extra seconds I wait for my PC to boot is worth it.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Not all of us. I have never used it. I prefer to load games off floppy or do a proper hard drive install.

But I'm a bit weird like that. I like listening to the floppy drive chatter away as it loads stuff, heightening the anticipation and making the game more worthwhile when it finally gets going. Even worse, I love those Spectrum games that draw red/blue lines in the border and make various squawking noises while loading, starting with a title screen slowly building up to admire while the rest of the game loads over several minutes.

Some of it is nostalgia, some is wanting to stay true to the 'retro' experience, some is just doing what is familiar and some is not wanting to cheapen the experience by having thousands of games at my finger tips. This is a similar problem to what happened to the Amiga 'back in the day'. The average A500 owner here had ~500 disks of pirated games, far more than they could fully appreciate.

I think you will find I said the vast majority are using WHD load and enjoying the amazing wealth of compatibility it offers (thanks all who work on WHDload by the way).

I get what your are saying here about retro experience, but going for a total "retro" experience isn't necessarily what I'm after myself. By its very nature it is retro, however I am into enjoying the Amiga but with as many modern little bonuses as I can to enhance my experience. Some games where just too dam long to wait.

PS also enjoyed spectrum loading and the noises and the lines, but I mean after about the 2nd time sitting through that I'd be bored to tears now days and the novelty would have worn off by then. I like to play my spectrum games on the Amiga now too! All under one roof

Very sorry for going off topic so much here, I love the new Dread demo and really hope it will work well once it finally gets put together, will keep watching the development the videos come out

[rothers]

My 2013 Macbook Pro boots in ~12 seconds. I have to do that about 2-3 times a year.

My A500 boots in however long it takes to read in the startup exe. Because this game is for the A500.

[roondar]

Originally Posted by rabidgerry

But why the hell wouldn't I want a piece of that pie? Of course I want it, it looks amazing and what little I played I know I will enjoy so I want it on A1200 if there is even a slim chance of it like I'm sure a lot of people do.

It works just fine on an A1200. Simply disable your accelerator and you're good to go. All good accelerators I've seen support this. Some even support it in software. Kind of a hassle, true - but if you really want to play Dread with sound etc, there's always that option.

Here's how I see it: the 68000 is a CPU from 1979. You're using one from 1994. Dread is hyper-optimised for the 68000. There's bound to be some issues as a result. WHDLoad only 'fixes' these issues because the loaders for the various games patch their code to make them work. Such a thing hasn't been done to Dread yet. I'm hoping it will eventually (a WHDLoad loader for Dread would be great for instance), but I'm hoping much more that Dread isn't changed to work on all systems, but end up running worse on the actual target machine in the mean time.

And sadly, making stuff compatible accross CPU generations/Amiga types often means doing just that (this is why some WHDLoad loaders do work on an expanded OCS/ECS system, but add additional slowdown/choppyness). With that in mind, I'd be all for a WHDLoad version or a 68030/68040/68060 version, but less so for a generic approach - unless it doesn't affect the A500 version at all.

Yes you are right, we are spoiled with WHD load and like it or not, that is the standard the vast majority is used to nowadays. That standard being, major compatibility for like 99% games spreading over all the Amiga's. So once a bench mark is reached like that, it's hard to accept anything less.

I'm not so sure. To me, "it's hard to accept anything less" honestly sounds like expecting a bit much out of a free game. Don't get me wrong though, I'd love to see Dread evolve into a state were it runs on your A1200/68060 as much as it does on an A500. But if it doesn't, well, c'est la vie

However I do understand when things don't always work, but it doesn't stop me wanting to try and get them working if there are ways of doing so.

Yeah, that would very nice. Hopefully it'll end up that way