Why did the Atari ST designers use such a CRAPPY sound chip?

[jizmo]

Originally Posted by khph_re

For many people upgrading from beepers, the AY was a big step up. No, it wasn't as good as the SID. In the hands of great musicians it could produce great music.

Atari produced the ST in record time, and at a great price. Neither of these things would be possible if it was full of custom chips.

I have fond memories of my ST, it's the first machine I ever used as an actual computer, rather than a glorified console. But it it made me lust after the Amiga. Without the ST being the price it was, I would have been two years later joining the sixteen bit generation.

Still missed my SID though, so had to listen to the B.I.G demo over and over instead!

Had to double check for the author name is it's exactly as this post is exactly as if I'd written it myself.

I came from C64 and Atari ST felt light years ahead at the time, but the sound did feel like a step back. This was alleviated by all the sampling that Atari made possible over C64 and especially B.I.G. demo made a huge impression on me. Then of course, products like ST Connexion music demo that played MOD files really, really made me lust for Amiga.

I soon turned a happy Amiga user and its sound naturally blew Atari out of the water – no real competition there. But, I did find myself really fond of the sound years later and for the first time I find myself not only appreciate what composers like Jochen Hippel had been able to pull off with the chip, but actually really, really digging the characteristic sound and the super fat basses.

Now in hindsight I can really appreciate the simpleness of the ST's design, and all the mind blowing Atari demos and game conversions of the recent years are certainly a testament to all this. Had Atari capitalised on its off the shelf approach early on and upped the system with specs over Amiga early on they could have very well hold onto users like myself before we migrated to other platforms.

[Keops/Equinox]

Jizmo: same here, I spent countless hours listening to the B.I.G demo when I was a kid, it was kind of magic for me back then

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Keops/Equinox

Jizmo: same here, I spent countless hours listening to the B.I.G demo when I was a kid, it was kind of magic for me back then

Had a look at the B.I.G. demo, practically boring and unlistenable to me, same as all other ST stuff except samples.

In fact, I've noticed that no-one has mentioned ST samples at all, yet.

[jizmo]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Had a look at the B.I.G. demo, practically boring and unlistenable to me, same as all other ST stuff except samples.

In fact, I've noticed that no-one has mentioned ST samples at all, yet.

I don't think nobody here is interested in or bothered with winning you over to the ST camp, and that was definitely not the point of bringing the demo up.

Most of Amiga stuff is also boring and totally unlistenable to the vast majority of the population of the earth, but it still doesn't make it bad for those who appreciate them for nostalgic or other aspects of them.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by jizmo

Most of Amiga stuff is also boring and totally unlistenable to the vast majority of the population of the earth

I don't think so.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by jizmo

Most of Amiga stuff is also boring and totally unlistenable to the vast majority of the population of the earth, but it still doesn't make it bad for those who appreciate them for nostalgic or other aspects of them.

Yeah, but that's to be expected on any platform - because 90% of everything is crap.

[khph_re]

Originally Posted by jizmo

I soon turned a happy Amiga user and its sound naturally blew Atari out of the water – no real competition there. But, I did find myself really fond of the sound years later and for the first time I find myself not only appreciate what composers like Jochen Hippel had been able to pull off with the chip, but actually really, really digging the characteristic sound and the super fat basses..

All the early synth chips are unique instruments, and it's possible to like one over another just because you prefer the sound, never mind the technical abilities.
I prefer SID, but I also enjoy AY stuff. I guess having owned a Spectrum 128 and STFM helps.


Paula of course is a playback device, and can be directly compared to later playback devices, she's not as unique as the old synth chips.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by khph_re

All the early synth chips are unique instruments, and it's possible to like one over another just because you prefer the sound, never mind the technical abilities.
I prefer SID, but I also enjoy AY stuff. I guess having owned a Spectrum 128 and STFM helps.


Paula of course is a playback device, and can be directly compared to later playback devices, she's not as unique as the old synth chips.

I don't care much at all for synth chips, I much prefer the idea of a sound chip that can play back ANYTHING. With Paula, you can write code to create an instrument of any complexity and write out the sample data in memory, then you simply get Paula to play it back at any pitch and volume. It could be as simple as a tone or as complex as your imagination can get, as well as your coding skills.

Dedicated synth chips are extremely limited, some more so than others, and so only appeal to people who like the sound, and not everyone does.

A commercial example would be Ultravox's Vienna - people praise that song to the hilt to this day, yet I couldn't STAND it from the moment I first heard it, and IT had synths, too. That's probably why, in fact.

But synths are still preferable to the basic tones of the Atari ST sound chip.

[khph_re]

Originally Posted by Foebane

Dedicated synth chips are extremely limited, some more so than others, and so only appeal to people who like the sound, and not everyone does.

A commercial example would be Ultravox's Vienna - people praise that song to the hilt to this day, yet I couldn't STAND it from the moment I first heard it, and IT had synths, too. That's probably why, in fact.

And that's the thing, we all like different music and sounds. I'm a synth head, Gary Numan, Ultravox, Synthwave, is my thing, so I love the unique qualities of each sound chip, Paula too of course. If it makes you feel better, this kept Vienna off number one: [ Show youtube player ] :-)

...As my brother in law points out by playing it whenever I get in the car with him....

[rare_j]

I loved Vienna but the low tech p-shh does grate a bit after a dozen listens. And to be fair shaddap you face is also a great track with a lot of laughs and heart.

The absense of limitations is the enemy of art.
Listen to what Tim Follin did with the AY for Ghouls and Ghosts. You have to give it a minute of two.

[ Show youtube player ]

Probably someone posted the Robocop theme in this thread already, but here it is again. This is immense.

[ Show youtube player ]

[robinsonb5]

Originally Posted by rare_j

The absense of limitations is the enemy of art.
Listen to what Tim Follin did with the AY for Ghouls and Ghosts. You have to give it a minute of two.

This. 100%.


I said before that the version of a tune which has the "magic" tends to be the platform on which it was originally made - Tim Follin's music for Ghouls and Ghosts is an exception. That tune is superb on all the home conversions I've heard - Amiga, ST, C64, Spectrum and Amstrad - and to my ears more listenable than the arcade equivalent. I'm also a huge fan of the stage 3 music from Amiga, ST and C64 versions.

[NorthWay]

Originally Posted by rare_j

Listen to what Tim Follin did with the AY

Good, but somehow I thought they would be even better - I thought I had heard GnG before (is the ST version identical?). Perhaps Led Storm or Black Lamp is the one I enjoyed from the ST?
(And Joe Dolce is for me the essence of everything that was wrong with the 80s - sorry mate, taste and all...)

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by rare_j

The absense of limitations is the enemy of art.
Listen to what Tim Follin did with the AY for Ghouls and Ghosts. You have to give it a minute of two.

[ Show youtube player ]

Probably someone posted the Robocop theme in this thread already, but here it is again. This is immense.

[ Show youtube player ]

OK, to be brutally honest, I prefer the Ghouls and Ghosts tune instead of the Robocop one, the latter is so plinky-plonky it's just jarring.

In fact, the plinky-plonkiness reminds me of my sister's reaction to Amiga demoscene music I played to her, she seemed to be most irked by that particular type of music, plinky-plonky stuff. Other stuff she seemed OK with, at least back then.

Years later, we ended up discussing classical music and it turns out she HATESHATESHATES "piano" classical music, because it's also plinky-plonky, and she just hates single staccato notes like that, she prefers the notes to segue into one another seamlessly.

[AmigaHope]

Originally Posted by Foebane

I don't care much at all for synth chips, I much prefer the idea of a sound chip that can play back ANYTHING. With Paula, you can write code to create an instrument of any complexity and write out the sample data in memory, then you simply get Paula to play it back at any pitch and volume. It could be as simple as a tone or as complex as your imagination can get, as well as your coding skills.

The advantage of PSGs like the SID and AY were that you could make useful sounds without having to use a lot of RAM, or a lot of CPU. On Amiga games a lot of RAM got eaten up by the sound (or just had crappy sound) for instruments that didn't really need to be samples. Later FM synth chips that were used in Japanese systems (and in Adlib card) could produce some good music, albeit limited by the FM settings. Soundblaster showed that you could get good sounds by mixing a decent synth chip with a streamable DAC.

I really like the sound you can get out of modern retro-future PSG that have their own merits different from the fixed FM routines in later FM synths. Imagine if the Amiga had its digital PCM audio *AND* a synth chip that was basically a die-shrunk SID glued together 16 times! Only the stuff that really needed samples would use the PCM audio, and you could have far more voices too in this scenario. =o

Here's 8 SID chips working together to produce some amazing music:

[ Show youtube player ]

[amiman99]

I like Amiga's Paula chip but chip music has its charm.

Here is music using 2 AY38910 chips that are similar or same to Atari ST. Sounds pretty good, specially the bass part.

[ Show youtube player ]

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by AmigaHope

Later FM synth chips that were used in Japanese systems (and in Adlib card) could produce some good music, albeit limited by the FM settings. Soundblaster showed that you could get good sounds by mixing a decent synth chip with a streamable DAC.

I don't really like FM audio, neither.

I don't recall any of my SoundBlaster cards from 1995 onwards ever having FM audio, only that the MIDI playback on the first one at least sounded primitive, like chip music. Or is that what it was? All I know is, when AWE32 and the Wavetable stuff came along, I thought "now THAT'S what REAL music sounds like!"

Look, I'm not against chip music 100%, but I just don't want to hear it much. I have to be in the right mood for it.

[no9]

Originally Posted by AmigaHope

On Amiga games a lot of RAM got eaten up by the sound (or just had crappy sound) for instruments that didn't really need to be samples.

I wonder what sounds of Dune soundtrack would you exachange for FM synthesized ones.

Amiga Paula
[ Show youtube player ]
Pc Adlib
[ Show youtube player ]

Imagine if the Amiga had its digital PCM audio *AND* a synth chip that was basically a die-shrunk SID glued together 16 times!

Thank god we didn't have it at all! Otherwise instead of a sound freedom we would end up with that boring unified sounds for every single soundtrack. Or a straightforward conversions from the other systems. I definitely love how Paula rocks the house with all that crap quality samples instead of this perfectly 'clean' synthesis

Cannon Fodder FM?
[ Show youtube player ]

No way...

Blues Brothers?
[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]

C'mon...

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by no9

I wonder what sounds of Dune soundtrack would you exachange for FM synthesized ones.

Amiga Paula
[ Show youtube player ]
Pc Adlib
[ Show youtube player ]

Thank god we didn't have it at all! Otherwise instead of a sound freedom we would end up with that boring unified sounds for every single soundtrack. Or a straightforward conversions from the other systems. I definitely love how Paula rocks the house with all that crap quality samples instead of this perfectly 'clean' synthesis

Cannon Fodder FM?
[ Show youtube player ]

No way...

Blues Brothers?
[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]

C'mon...

I agree with you, No9.

The problem with FM synthesis is that it sounds too SAMEY, too CLEAN and too STERILE. Well, NEWSFLASH, people: the real world does not sound like FM synthesis.

So what if the Amiga samples may be crackly or bad or flawed? It can sound great when proper samples are chosen, but samples reflect real-world sounds. I mean, the Cannon Fodder PC version didn't even have SPEECH, for god's sake!

[drHirudo]

Originally Posted by amiman99

I like Amiga's Paula chip but chip music has its charm.

Here is music using 2 AY38910 chips that are similar or same to Atari ST. Sounds pretty good, specially the bass part.

This song is possible to replay by Apple II with Phasor sound card (2 AY-Chips)
[ Show youtube player ]

We shall expect much more from 8MHz true 16-bit machine like the ST.

Which makes me wonder if the Atari ST ever had sound card additions -
Something like Tocatta, the 12-bit Sunrise DD512 or similar. Not that the Amiga sound cards ever got popular.

[dreadnought]

"Paula vs Adlib"..."synthesis too sterile"....fasten your seatbelts, we're moving into Extreme Rationalization zone