SukkoPera's Open Source Hardware: A500/A600 Chip/Fast RAM Expansions

[katarakt]

There is no screw going directly into the motherboard, it goes into the mountinghole which already is existing on the motherboard!

I've unscrewed it and checked carefully if it does some damage to the via or board and it does not.

Therefore, i still recommend a (correct diameter!) tapping screw or use a normal screw from the underside through if you're not happy with a tapping screw.

If people don't want to use a screw, i have no problem with that. But, i got some feedback from people which are buying sukkopera's 4mb from doubious overpriced internetsources with bad socket and no screw...and guess what, all have problems until they do what i recommend to do

[Lemaru]

That's the thing, the mounting hole is part of the motherboard, and was not designed to have a screw going into it. It is simply that, a hole which the legs of the 2.5" cradle sit in.

Much better with a standard screw slightly undersized, an M1.6 x 16mm works great.

Just the decent socket alone does the job. Same socket as the Furia uses, modded as per the guide on the GitHub which both you and I provided details on. That's how I was selling mine and never had a single complaint or issue reported.

If it works for you though, great. I just just personally wouldn't recommend it to in general. A little too tight and that can start pulling layers apart or just chewing the board up. I'd recommend people glue a plastic standoff or spacer to the board and screw into that, instead of into the board itself if they really want a screw and don't want to slide one harmlessly through the rear.

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion though, and the more options there are for people to help sort their issues the better

[katarakt]

Yep, if the tapping screw is bigger as i recommend than you might get those problems you mentioned. So, only with the diameter i recommend for the tapping screw it's working great. That is a very very important detail.

[LIV2]

Status update:
Got new PCBs this week, they kinda work but I purchased the wrong type of mux so the timing is off and it causes issues on my A2000... Will probably do another mouser order this week to get the correct ones and will update when I have received them

[SukkoPera]

Nice work, Matt. I usually use MC74ACT157 and they seem to run well.

On the other hand, wanna see something nice?

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=...08139864664420

This nice Donny guy from RetroTechLyfe has shamelessly ripped off my Raemixx500 board, removing all credits and Open Hardware claims, and self-attributing the whole work ("Design by Donny"). Very nice of them, I'm sure this will inspire other people in making more Open Hardware.

When I pointed that out on his Instagram account, I was instantly banned.

He has already done that in the past: this C64 board is of course this project of bwack's.

Don't buy from this j*rk. Spread the word.

[Lemaru]

What an arsehole. Is there any identifying marks to prove it's a rip off of your design? If so I'll flag it in all the groups and stuff.

[Lemaru]

Actually have spotted the giveaways, being the mods you added to your design. Thks is why one person can ruin things for everyone.

I know you are not too active in Facebook so I have posted in the main Amiga group to make them aware.

I see it appears to have been removed from his Instagram now.

[SukkoPera]

I can assure you it's my board. It might look not 100% identical to the pic on GitHub, but that's because the pic is outdated. If you open the current project in kicad, you'll see it looks exactly the same.

I wonder if he has bothered to test it at least, since my project is still untested. I have no idea if it works and/or if it fits where it's supposed to. If he did and maybe if he has fixed something, the license forces him to release his modifications, but I'm sure he would just not comply.

Ahhhhh, what a shame.

[Lemaru]

Originally Posted by SukkoPera

I can assure you it's my board. It might look not 100% identical to the pic on GitHub, but that's because the pic is outdated. If you open the current project in kicad, you'll see it looks exactly the same.

I wonder if he has bothered to test it at least, since my project is still untested. I have no idea if it works and/or if it fits where it's supposed to. If he did and maybe if he has fixed something, the license forces him to release his modifications, but I'm sure he would just not comply.

Ahhhhh, what a shame.

Yeah the guys a dick. He's been randomly adding loads of people on Facebook it seems. I have now been blocked by him. I can clearly see it's your board by your modifications.

I know you are not active much on Facebook if I remember correctly so shared it here and in a few other groups and discord channels.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/CommodoreAmiga/permalink/10158167671974157/

[SukkoPera]

I am pretty much no longer active anywhere. I left most FB groups, closed my Twitter account and I basically plan to only write here from time to time. And incidents like this one make me feel it was the right choice.

Thanks for your help in any case, I appreciate it

[Lemaru]

Such a shame to lose you, there are others feeling similar when it comes to open sourcing and releasing stuff. All because people are greedy arseholes

If you ever need and 3D stuff designing again, ping me an email anytime buddy

[Daedalus]

The joy of open source. Licencing like that is only relevant if someone is willing to meaningfully back it up. There will always be a certain element of every community who will take advantage of the work of others and who will only follow rules if they're forced to. To believe otherwise, that everyone will follow such restrictions simply because they're asked nicely, is foolish. There are a few choices as I can see it:

- Accept that it will happen if your project is of any value and be comfortable with that eventuality;
- Be prepared to legally challenge any breaches of licencing terms;

And if neither of those options suit:

- Don't release the work in the first place. If licencing precludes that option, then that project isn't suitable.

[seb132]

That this Donny is an arse is a given.
However the only way to prevent him to sell what’s not belonging to him at crazy price is 1) to info the community, and 2) to make available more manufactured alternatives, at more reasonable pricing.
Partnering with shops is perhaps an opportunity...
Unfortunately lots of us are not able to weld or program ICs to the required standards to make such projects working for us so if the only alternative is to buy from this kind of people well then, it will happen.
However, removing origin and taking credit for someone else’s work is NOT and will NEVER be acceptable.

[SukkoPera]

Of course I expected the occasional moron. What drives me crazy is that I found *many* more morons than people making good use (i.e. the one I intended) of my projects.

As I have said before and elsewhere, I feel the real problem is the ignorance of what Open Source Hardware actually is. The average Joe in the retrogaming world usually thinks that OSHW = "do what you want with it". They expect it to be free (in all senses) and complete (as in "tested and working"), they think they can stick their name of it, sell it, etc. Most people do not realize that OSHW projects actually come with a license that says what you can and what you cannot do with it.

And yes, enforcing the license might be hard to do, it will require a lot of effort and probably even money if you want to do it seriously. But the main reason I won't do it is that it would be a waste of my time and attention. I prefer to invest it doing other things.

But I feel a license would not be that important if there was wider knowledge and acceptance of the *ethics* behind OSHW. For a niche market like the retrogaming world it could actually be the only way to guarantee long-survivability of platforms. We are already seeing it today how hard it is for companies to produce large batches of products as sales projections are relatively small. Think about the new Amiga cases, the keyboards or the Vampires: all of these have/had long waiting queues and some haven't even been delivered yet.

As the number of machines and people using them gets smaller, things will get worse. When the Vampire guys for instance will reach the point where their projected sales are only a few tens, they will just abandon the project and it will be gone for good. Nobody will be able to get fix or update one.

We can also see it with the original Commodore chips: they are long gone, but they are not open and nobody cannot make new ones.

OSHW does not have this risk: projects are fully open, anyone can pick them up, make, study and improve them at any time. This is why Terriblefires will outlive Vampires and why Raemixx500 is better than the board from Bob's Bits. I wish more people understood that and supported OSHW developers more. And "support" actually means: do your part! OSHW should be guided by the same principles as Free Software, i.e.: release early, release often this means that products should be released early in their development cycle, when they are still buggy or not working at all. At that point anybody, even without specific knowledge, can contribute, just by testing it. Or they can work on accessories, maybe a 3D-printable case. Other people can build and sell boards. More knowledgeable people can fix bugs or contribute new features, just like Matt did with my expansion. Which is not actually mine, as it builds over previous open work by a cool guy named lvd.

See? With OSHW anybody can do a small part and the final result is bigger than the sum of the single contributions. I wish more people understood that.

@seb132: As time goes by, if you want to stay in the retrogaming world, you will have to learn how to solder, willingly or not. I feel a lot of my projects, for instance, are perfect for learning, as they are cheap and use common and (relatively) big components. This is one of my design goals. I used to think I couldn't solder either, but then I found out that was only because I did not have a decent iron and I was not using decent solder wire. Those might not be too cheap but not that expensive either and are a good investment for the future. Try it .

[Daedalus]

If understanding of the ethics involve was the issue, you wouldn't need law enforcement anywhere. People will always bend rules like that to suit themselves, it's not as simple or as specific as ignorance of the nature of open source, and I think it's naïve to believe that that's the case. If there's nothing to stop people doing something other than their conscience, there's nothing to stop people doing it.

[SukkoPera]

What I meant is that I wouldn't care if there was one person taking unfair advantage of my work and as little as 5 contributing to it. At the moment there's like 1 contributing and 50 taking advantage, which is what infuriates me. And yes, I agree that would need enforcement but it's just not worth the time. My goal was never to become rich my projects anyway, I just wanted to make the community better.

[seb132]

@SukkoPera: 100% agree on what you say, mate, including the end about soldering and how your projects are easier to deal with for a beginner.
Now I don’t think there are more Morons than nice guys; I am in hospitality and the problem is the same: you hear or read about the “bad” guests, but the ones who enjoyed the experience rarely spend time to let everybody know... so the perception is flawed.
Regarding open source, the good guys you talk about and who should participate are my happy guests who are not leaving a good review on my website.
But they are there and they are the majority, fortunately.

[Daedalus]

Well, somewhere between those 1:5 and 1:50 ratios is your limit then, and having that limit at all is the problem. Open source is a great philosophy in theory, but in reality >90% of projects will have far more taken from them than ever contributed to them. That's the reality that you need to be comfortable with. It's unfortunate, but if a number people taking advantage of your work infuriates you, then that approach is not for you.

It's why I don't open source any of my hardware or software work any more.

[Lemaru]

The word is spreading about this guy now. It appears he is doing this with loads of people's work, and taking their details off and labelling them as "Design by Donny".

He seemed to have gone on a spree if adding loads of people from the group's as friends. And anyone who comments or messages him is getting blocked. I got blocked just for responding to a post with an angry reaction lol.

He's now getting bad reviews on his Facebook page,as he can't remove them. People also started leaving bad reviews on Google, but now when searching for his company page, it's no longer coming up so he may of removed the listing from Google.

People reselling others work is fine if the licence allows. People passing it off as their own work is a dick move.

What does he even gain by doing it? It doesn't make it worth any more. I'd personally rather pay more for a board with Sukkopera's name on it, who is known within the community, than I would for some guys name who no one has ever heard of.

Spreading the word is about all we can do I guess.

[sampedenawa]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Well, somewhere between those 1:5 and 1:50 ratios is your limit then, and having that limit at all is the problem. Open source is a great philosophy in theory, but in reality >90% of projects will have far more taken from them than ever contributed to them. That's the reality that you need to be comfortable with. It's unfortunate, but if a number people taking advantage of your work infuriates you, then that approach is not for you.

It's why I don't open source any of my hardware or software work any more.

Let me jump in the discussion for my bit of contribution.

I think the discussion up to now missed a subtle but important detail, which besides reflects my personal beliefs:

I am fully convinced that Open Source is a precious resource, and I personally don't care if 99.99% of the people takes advantage of my OS projects without giving back anything in exchange, but I really can't stand where this advantage becomes "making free money with them".

That's why I myself decided not to open source portions of my projects (I recall we had a long discussion with Sukko about that, at the time), while keeping non-secondary tech details open (e.g. the hardware schematics, etc.).

Unless we have a mechanism to quickly and efficiently protect EULAs and original creator's rights (admitting it would be possible), without the need to evoke courts and lawyers, this will be the whole picture, liking or not.