05 November 2021, 13:53 | #521 |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Karlstad / Sweden
Age: 52
Posts: 1,210
|
Yo needed a specialized disk with dir and list. and others did not care about that and wanted workbench,, it was for sure a specialized situation to keep YOUR needs.
the workbenchdisk was one to cover most needs. a generic system. |
05 November 2021, 13:57 | #522 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
Ofcourse, we should stay to the facts, even if it can get emotional. And I fully understand that my arguments are maybe not so welcome for most people here, who have been working with and loving the Amiga for ages, and regard the system as one that was way ahead of it's time. But still I think my arguments are valid - the Amiga was probably good and well designed, but not for all cases and all configurations. And that is the topic of this thread after all. |
|
05 November 2021, 14:09 | #523 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
And my 'specialised disk' was exactly for this task! It is the main task of using a computer: Looking what applications are on the storage medium, then selecting and loading one of them. And my 'specialized disk' was needed to provide exactly that. Workbench could perhaps do some more things, but how often were they needed? It is still the same on your smartphone nowadays: You see which app you have on your screen, then tap it to load it. And the most important thing is that you get the possibility to do this task as fast as possible after the computer's start. |
|
05 November 2021, 14:11 | #524 |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Karlstad / Sweden
Age: 52
Posts: 1,210
|
for running applications you booted on the disk. it had a startup-sequence that started the program..
if not. most people would use workbench as then no need for commands.again.. your need was very specific. so you had to eaither use the supplied solution (wb with cli etc etc) or do a custom yourself. |
05 November 2021, 14:20 | #525 | |||||
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,233
|
Quote:
That depends on what you expect. If you want a UI, there is the workbench, and the "copy" and "list" commands are not required for it to work, so just strike them from my list. The workbench shows the disk contents without them. If you want a shell, then you need shell commands. Actually, the C64 didn't come with either. No UI, no shell. Just a BASIC programming language that wasn't even well adapted to the system. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, that was, indeed, something that was not done right. So in this respect, you are correct. Quote:
I don't need to turn on my machine every time I list directories. I only do that once, so that's actually not quite the same. I also don't erase my program on the Amiga every time I list a directory, as you do on the C64. |
|||||
05 November 2021, 14:29 | #526 | ||
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
And that was simly not affordable and a complete waste of diskspace, and money, after all.... Maybe this is the original problem of the Amiga, where all my issues start from? Quite possible.... Quote:
But I didn't want to wait for it to load so long every time I just wanted to start an application or do anything with files on a disk. Hence my argument why it was not available in rom? (no need to discuss it again - I understand it was a cost factor...and some 'well thought system design' of course ) |
||
05 November 2021, 14:31 | #527 | |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 2,295
|
Quote:
|
|
05 November 2021, 14:49 | #528 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,233
|
|
05 November 2021, 14:52 | #529 |
Registered User
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Munich/Bavaria
Posts: 2,295
|
|
05 November 2021, 14:54 | #530 | ||||||||
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
In my opinion, there are kind of 2 OS on the Amiga (maybe even 3, if we talk about the Kickrom, too?) There is the Workbench, which I thought was THE Amiga OS? But then you told me it is not, it is the Kickstart?! And there is Amigados, which in my world is something like another OS in parallel to the Workbench? Maybe all a bit similar to early Windows versions like 3.1 or so, when there was DOS, but you could also do the same via Windows in parallel? I think we should clarifiy this once and for all, otherwise we are talking in circles and of different things! Quote:
And again, NO, you are wrong here. The C64 had a command UI right from start of the computer, a blinking cursro, where you were able to enter commands, like for instance LOAD"$",8 , LIST, RUN, OPEN, PRINT#, etc, etc. Those were all OS commands, which were integrated in Basic, but have otherwise nothing to do with Basic. You will not use any of those in writing Basic programs. Quote:
But Workbench was loading far too long for this very likely use case. Quote:
Please tell me how would a minimal Workbench disk look like, which let me do all the file operations you say are already integrated in Kickrom, like copying a file by drawing it to another folder, renaming a file, listing a folders content (let's assume all files have their annoying .info files with them), or simply double click to run one of them? How long would it take to load? I guess the startup-sequence you listed before boots me into a shell, correct? Quote:
And yes, this shows exactly that developers assumed you had a harddisk. (which in fact maybe one out of 20 users had?!) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This only changed in recent times with harddisks and WHDLoad games, where you actually can go back to the OS (but I think only on 68020 machines or something?!?) |
||||||||
05 November 2021, 14:59 | #531 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
All that is greeting me when I turn on the Amiga is a nice kickstart hand. No UI, no cursor, no windows, no mouse pointer. This is completely different to the C64 where I am ready to start an application from my work disk right after I turn on the computer, WITHOUT loading any such wb/shell/dos disk before. Please get that in your head also, or show me how it works?! How can I start one of let's say 10 applications from my floppy disk, directly from the kickstart hand?! I think we are talking past each other on this?! |
|
05 November 2021, 15:05 | #532 |
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Karlstad / Sweden
Age: 52
Posts: 1,210
|
Again: it was no C64. you wanted a new C64. most didn't..
people that handled the Amiga as a grown up C64 made the "incompabilityissues" etc.. people that never bothered to... learn! |
05 November 2021, 15:05 | #533 |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
|
05 November 2021, 15:11 | #534 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
Games which were not compatible? What is there to 'learn' if a game does not run because of Kickstart or memory expansion incompatibilities? All I can learn from it is that I better get a memory expansion with a switch, or a kickstart switcher if I got an A-600.... Just giving up and taking it as 'given' and stop playing (your maybe favorite) game is not an option. All I would be 'learning' out of such a situation is being disappointed with the Amiga. |
|
05 November 2021, 15:12 | #535 |
It's coming back!
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: comp.sys.amiga
Posts: 762
|
To have the computer boot automatically to a minimal Workbench, to at least allow browsing disks and copying files between them, would have been a nice feature. This, to me, seems like something it didn't get right from day 1, particularly since Workbench was there, waiting, in ROM.
|
05 November 2021, 15:35 | #536 | ||
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,233
|
Quote:
Quote:
With that, for example: http://aminet.net/package/util/boot/NDos |
||
05 November 2021, 15:36 | #537 |
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Germany
Posts: 3,233
|
|
05 November 2021, 17:22 | #538 | ||
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
But I see you simply ignore the fact that there were commands available at the start, which the Amiga had not, and you cannot bring any other argument than ranting about the Basic.... And, yes, the Amiga was different, and also better in many ways, just not in ALL of them... Quote:
But: Did you look a the date? 1997 ?!? I had my Amiga 500 in 1990.... In 1997, the Amiga was dead for most people, especially those many who were gamers (except some enthusiasts) Also this had to be installed on every disk. (but ok, I could have lived with that, though) |
||
05 November 2021, 17:27 | #539 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
The game was intended for a Kick 1.2 or 1.3 machine, back then. Or do you think game developers would have had some magic glass sphere to look into the future, and see a Kickstart 2.0 coming, which would prevent their game from working any more, later? How should they have expected that?! |
|
05 November 2021, 17:29 | #540 | |
Commodore Collector
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Austria
Age: 53
Posts: 944
|
Quote:
Thanks a lot!! At least one person who understands this |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Non-Amiga things that remind you of Amiga things? | Fingerlickin_B | Retrogaming General Discussion | 1050 | 02 May 2024 07:52 |
wanting to experiment, using Amiga (emulator) as my day to day machine, need advice | mmace | New to Emulation or Amiga scene | 14 | 19 March 2020 11:32 |
Why game companies didn't make better games for Amiga | ancalimon | Retrogaming General Discussion | 35 | 17 July 2017 12:27 |
New Year Day = throw CD32 in the dishwasher day | Paul_s | Hardware mods | 16 | 03 January 2009 19:45 |
Amazing things you've done with your Amiga | mr_a500 | Amiga scene | 67 | 05 July 2007 19:45 |
|
|