New product: Retrotink 2X-SCART - Page 3

sepecat · 26 September 2020, 00:51

A few more updates:

I wouldn't recommend using a firmware newer than 1.3 at this time. I upgraded to the current (as of this writing) 1.5 release and found that there was a tendency, maybe 1 out of 3 boots, to drop to a black screen for about 2 seconds and then redisplay. The unit LED flashed red when this happens, and while sometimes it only happens once, sometimes it will cycle like this several times until the picture is stable again which is pretty intrusive. I then tried release 1.4 which draws a white box over the bottom 1/3 of the screen in PAL modes. That was no good, so I have reverted to release 1.3 and so far none of these issues there.

I think the unit tries to filter out the low-level noise I mentioned earlier because it only seems to happen when there are large areas of the screen with the affected color(s). A good example is Skeleton Krew, where the large red background on the title screen renders with no noise, but as soon as the next screen (character select) is displayed where that red area is somewhat bigger, the noise is definitely visible. This also does not appear to be limited to Amiga output as I found a forum post describing the same problem using several console sources: https://videogameperfection.com/foru...tink-2x-scart/ That gives me some hope that this may be resolved in a firmware update if the noise filtering is made a little more aggressive.

Also be careful about the power source. The manual and specs say any USB source or AC charger should be fine as long as it can output at least 500mA. I wondered if my source could be adding any GFI loops or other noise to the board so I tried a 5.1V 750mA charger that I had been using for my USB audio amp with no problems and I started getting a very pronounced vertical warping and flickering effect, which I unplugged right away fearing something getting pushed out of spec. I don't have a scope to analyze the output, but I tried another charger that listed 5.1V 850mA and that one seemed fine, same as when plugged into my DVD player USB as a power source.

Derek · 05 October 2020, 09:49

This is a very interesting thread. I nearly ordered one of these, but now i'm not so sure. 90% of my time on the Amiga is/will be games - so i'm not as fussy as some. But i also like the demoscene - and i'm not sure how well that'll go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sepecat

The SCART unit does not have a pass-thru mode; only the latest "2x Multiformat" product includes that. So that explains any mode that doesn't need line-doubling not working.

Which doesn't have SCART input

I don't really understand, but it looks like it doesn't really do RGB: https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/2x-multiformat

EDIT - RetroRGB Review...

[ Show youtube player ]

sepecat · 07 October 2020, 08:05

Agreed- the Multiformat box will take component, which should in theory be close to matching picture quality with RGB, but TVs seem to be pickier about what they'll accept. For example I have one of the Retronic Designs Amiga RGB-to-component adapters (collecting a nice menagerie of these devices it seems) and it works fairly well for NTSC output, but because there is no explicit sync signal supplied unlike RGB and because it's an NTSC TV model, it assumes 60Hz sync/vertical refresh and doesn't switch to 50Hz for PAL output so the bottom third of the screen is cut off, and it won't handle anything other than 15 KHz modes either. That's feeding directly into the component input on the TV; of course using something like the Multiformat is for the case where HDMI output is needed for a component source, but then you're looking at 2 devices to get component output from the Amiga and then converting again to HDMI, which is way too much processing IMHO.

I'm guessing the pass-through mode was left out of the SCART product just to get it on the market faster and because most consoles it will be used with will never stray from 15 KHz modes anyway. Idk whether the hardware supports it but if pass-thru can be added in a firmware update it would certainly make the SCART unit more useful for things other than gaming. Since I'm using it with a CRT and purely for gaming with my CD32 it works well for that purpose. Anecdotally I think the vast majority of demoscene stuff is designed to work with a 15Khz monitor / TV too. I'm sure there are a handful of things that will use the 30KHz AGA modes optionally but likely very few locked to that.

Derek · 13 October 2020, 11:11

Nice post!

Apparently, he only recently discovered the capability of the chip. I don't know if they use the same chips - but if it does i would imagine it would something he could introduce. But by firmware or if it needs some other minor hardware modification? No idea.

Let's hope for news.

sepecat · 15 October 2020, 05:27

Thanks!

I wish I would have bought my unit direct instead of through Amazon (shame on me) so that I had access to Retrotink's own support forum, sadly I didn't realize that point until after the fact. But I too will watch and wait in anticipation.

Derek · 19 October 2020, 11:36

I'd always be worried about ripoffs buying from Amazon.

If any of us hear anything about this pass-through ability, we should post

Derek · 03 December 2020, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by sepecat

Thanks!

I wish I would have bought my unit direct instead of through Amazon (shame on me) so that I had access to Retrotink's own support forum, sadly I didn't realize that point until after the fact. But I too will watch and wait in anticipation.

Does that mean it's a copy, or it's his but through a reseller? If it's his but through a reseller, you could probably still reach out to him. Wink wink, nudge nudge

sepecat · 21 December 2020, 01:44

Yes it's legitimate (at least I certainly hope it is! Amazon seller RetroTINK, a Mr. Chi in San Diego so let's hope that's Mike) so maybe I'll reach out the next time I have something useful to say. Good thought, thanks!

Derek · 22 December 2020, 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by sepecat

Yes it's legitimate (at least I certainly hope it is! Amazon seller RetroTINK, a Mr. Chi in San Diego so let's hope that's Mike) so maybe I'll reach out the next time I have something useful to say. Good thought, thanks!

Ask him about the pass-through capability

mart1n · 16 April 2021, 20:08

I've been forced to move my main setup back and forth as this entire covid thing has meant that I have to use my office for actual work. Some weeks ago I got tired of moving everything each Friday so I decided to buy a Retrotink (2XSCART) to compliment the OSSC at my main desk.

The difference of sharpness is quite shocking. Same A1200, same RGB to SCART cable. I guess that games are ok but Workbench is a pain with the Retrotink. It's a bit if I would imagine cataract would feel like. I have different monitors in the two rooms but I tried it on both as a sanity check. Is this to be expected?

Derek · 11 May 2021, 01:07

I'm posting this in case some have missed it - the new RetroTink 5X. According to Modern Vintage Gamer - it still has the 50/60Hz problem

Can it be fixed with firmware update? Will he?

About 8mins in:

[ Show youtube player ]

jbilander · 12 May 2021, 19:39

I think the 50 Hz PAL problem might occur because in this case a NTSC-machine was used switched to output a 50 Hz PAL-signal. That is not the same as a PAL-signal coming from a PAL-Amiga with a base crystal oscillator of 28.37516 MHz. The PAL-timing is slightly different (derived from base 28.63636 MHz) which perhaps causes the RetroTinx 5X to have the PAL-hiccups. I might be wrong but it would be interesting to try that 5X hooked up to a PAL-machine running PAL 50Hz and watch the result.

BTW, someone finally made that "dongle" that was asked for here post #20:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=78339

so switching between true native NTSC 60Hz and true native PAL 50Hz from one and the same machine is now possible allowing for smooth scrolling and correct aspect ratio graphics and correct gameplay speed/sound playback, be it NTSC or PAL.

Derek · 13 May 2021, 00:14

MVG is an Australian, in Australia as far I can tell. It's possible he's using an NTSC Amiga, but I think it unlikely.

Thanks for the info though. Let's hope for more thorough testing/details in the near future.

jbilander · 13 May 2021, 09:20

In the youtube comment section of the video he mentions that he doesn't have any PAL-consoles to test with, which is a bit strange if you are a gamer from Australia, but yeah it's possible his Amiga is a PAL-machine and if so then Mike Chi indeed has some fixing to do with the 5X firmware.

Derek · 14 May 2021, 00:10

Ah yes, he did mention that in the video for memory. I didn't think twice because I don't consider the Amiga a console. IIRC, he mentioned that before testing the Amiga too. It would be odd for him to go out of his way to pickup an 'inferior' (for games) NTSC Amiga.

I need a memory upgrade ??

Anyway, let's hope for some clarification, more Amiga testing and if necessary, firmware upgrades (assuming that can fix it).

graffias79 · 26 May 2021, 22:06

MVG is located in the US according to his profile on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ModernVintageG

klx300r · 07 July 2021, 16:34

@ sepecat

thanks for the testing

so far my cheap GBS 8200 V4 looks much better than RetroTink

Aardvark · 11 September 2021, 02:04

For anyone interested, Retrotink-5X Pro 1.77 firmware has fixed desyncing problem which occured when switching screenmodes from PAL interlaced to non-interlaced. Now it works perfect with Amiga.

Jope · 11 September 2021, 14:49

This is great news. Is there a sampling mode that is well suited for the Amiga's max horizontal overscan?

Aardvark · 11 September 2021, 17:24

Not sure what you meant by sampling mode, but i posted photos of max overscan sizes with different Retrotinks output res modes. https://ibb.co/km13bwc
724 x 280 in 576p mode is the best it can do, other modes are more cropped.

26 September 2020, 00:51	#41
sepecat Registered User Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Chicago / USA Posts: 7	A few more updates: I wouldn't recommend using a firmware newer than 1.3 at this time. I upgraded to the current (as of this writing) 1.5 release and found that there was a tendency, maybe 1 out of 3 boots, to drop to a black screen for about 2 seconds and then redisplay. The unit LED flashed red when this happens, and while sometimes it only happens once, sometimes it will cycle like this several times until the picture is stable again which is pretty intrusive. I then tried release 1.4 which draws a white box over the bottom 1/3 of the screen in PAL modes. That was no good, so I have reverted to release 1.3 and so far none of these issues there. I think the unit tries to filter out the low-level noise I mentioned earlier because it only seems to happen when there are large areas of the screen with the affected color(s). A good example is Skeleton Krew, where the large red background on the title screen renders with no noise, but as soon as the next screen (character select) is displayed where that red area is somewhat bigger, the noise is definitely visible. This also does not appear to be limited to Amiga output as I found a forum post describing the same problem using several console sources: https://videogameperfection.com/foru...tink-2x-scart/ That gives me some hope that this may be resolved in a firmware update if the noise filtering is made a little more aggressive. Also be careful about the power source. The manual and specs say any USB source or AC charger should be fine as long as it can output at least 500mA. I wondered if my source could be adding any GFI loops or other noise to the board so I tried a 5.1V 750mA charger that I had been using for my USB audio amp with no problems and I started getting a very pronounced vertical warping and flickering effect, which I unplugged right away fearing something getting pushed out of spec. I don't have a scope to analyze the output, but I tried another charger that listed 5.1V 850mA and that one seemed fine, same as when plugged into my DVD player USB as a power source. Last edited by sepecat; 26 September 2020 at 01:12.

07 October 2020, 08:05	#43
sepecat Registered User Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Chicago / USA Posts: 7	Agreed- the Multiformat box will take component, which should in theory be close to matching picture quality with RGB, but TVs seem to be pickier about what they'll accept. For example I have one of the Retronic Designs Amiga RGB-to-component adapters (collecting a nice menagerie of these devices it seems) and it works fairly well for NTSC output, but because there is no explicit sync signal supplied unlike RGB and because it's an NTSC TV model, it assumes 60Hz sync/vertical refresh and doesn't switch to 50Hz for PAL output so the bottom third of the screen is cut off, and it won't handle anything other than 15 KHz modes either. That's feeding directly into the component input on the TV; of course using something like the Multiformat is for the case where HDMI output is needed for a component source, but then you're looking at 2 devices to get component output from the Amiga and then converting again to HDMI, which is way too much processing IMHO. I'm guessing the pass-through mode was left out of the SCART product just to get it on the market faster and because most consoles it will be used with will never stray from 15 KHz modes anyway. Idk whether the hardware supports it but if pass-thru can be added in a firmware update it would certainly make the SCART unit more useful for things other than gaming. Since I'm using it with a CRT and purely for gaming with my CD32 it works well for that purpose. Anecdotally I think the vast majority of demoscene stuff is designed to work with a 15Khz monitor / TV too. I'm sure there are a handful of things that will use the 30KHz AGA modes optionally but likely very few locked to that. Last edited by sepecat; 08 October 2020 at 00:16.

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13 October 2020, 11:11	#44
Derek Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 40	Nice post! Apparently, he only recently discovered the capability of the chip. I don't know if they use the same chips - but if it does i would imagine it would something he could introduce. But by firmware or if it needs some other minor hardware modification? No idea. Let's hope for news.

15 October 2020, 05:27	#45
sepecat Registered User Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Chicago / USA Posts: 7	Thanks! I wish I would have bought my unit direct instead of through Amazon (shame on me) so that I had access to Retrotink's own support forum, sadly I didn't realize that point until after the fact. But I too will watch and wait in anticipation.

19 October 2020, 11:36	#46
Derek Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 40	I'd always be worried about ripoffs buying from Amazon. If any of us hear anything about this pass-through ability, we should post

21 December 2020, 01:44	#48
sepecat Registered User Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Chicago / USA Posts: 7	Yes it's legitimate (at least I certainly hope it is! Amazon seller RetroTINK, a Mr. Chi in San Diego so let's hope that's Mike) so maybe I'll reach out the next time I have something useful to say. Good thought, thanks!

16 April 2021, 20:08	#50
mart1n Registered User Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Stockholm Posts: 18	I've been forced to move my main setup back and forth as this entire covid thing has meant that I have to use my office for actual work. Some weeks ago I got tired of moving everything each Friday so I decided to buy a Retrotink (2XSCART) to compliment the OSSC at my main desk. The difference of sharpness is quite shocking. Same A1200, same RGB to SCART cable. I guess that games are ok but Workbench is a pain with the Retrotink. It's a bit if I would imagine cataract would feel like. I have different monitors in the two rooms but I tried it on both as a sanity check. Is this to be expected?

11 May 2021, 01:07	#51
Derek Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 40	I'm posting this in case some have missed it - the new RetroTink 5X. According to Modern Vintage Gamer - it still has the 50/60Hz problem Can it be fixed with firmware update? Will he? About 8mins in: [ Show youtube player ]

12 May 2021, 19:39	#52
jbilander Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Stockholm Age: 48 Posts: 264	I think the 50 Hz PAL problem might occur because in this case a NTSC-machine was used switched to output a 50 Hz PAL-signal. That is not the same as a PAL-signal coming from a PAL-Amiga with a base crystal oscillator of 28.37516 MHz. The PAL-timing is slightly different (derived from base 28.63636 MHz) which perhaps causes the RetroTinx 5X to have the PAL-hiccups. I might be wrong but it would be interesting to try that 5X hooked up to a PAL-machine running PAL 50Hz and watch the result. BTW, someone finally made that "dongle" that was asked for here post #20: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=78339 so switching between true native NTSC 60Hz and true native PAL 50Hz from one and the same machine is now possible allowing for smooth scrolling and correct aspect ratio graphics and correct gameplay speed/sound playback, be it NTSC or PAL.

13 May 2021, 00:14	#53
Derek Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 40	MVG is an Australian, in Australia as far I can tell. It's possible he's using an NTSC Amiga, but I think it unlikely. Thanks for the info though. Let's hope for more thorough testing/details in the near future.

13 May 2021, 09:20	#54
jbilander Registered User Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Stockholm Age: 48 Posts: 264	In the youtube comment section of the video he mentions that he doesn't have any PAL-consoles to test with, which is a bit strange if you are a gamer from Australia, but yeah it's possible his Amiga is a PAL-machine and if so then Mike Chi indeed has some fixing to do with the 5X firmware.

14 May 2021, 00:10	#55
Derek Registered User Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Australia Posts: 40	Ah yes, he did mention that in the video for memory. I didn't think twice because I don't consider the Amiga a console. IIRC, he mentioned that before testing the Amiga too. It would be odd for him to go out of his way to pickup an 'inferior' (for games) NTSC Amiga. I need a memory upgrade ?? Anyway, let's hope for some clarification, more Amiga testing and if necessary, firmware upgrades (assuming that can fix it).

26 May 2021, 22:06	#56
graffias79 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Madison, WI, USA Posts: 69	MVG is located in the US according to his profile on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ModernVintageG

07 July 2021, 16:34	#57
klx300r Registered User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,593	@ sepecat thanks for the testing so far my cheap GBS 8200 V4 looks much better than RetroTink

11 September 2021, 02:04	#58
Aardvark Registered User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Finland Posts: 634	For anyone interested, Retrotink-5X Pro 1.77 firmware has fixed desyncing problem which occured when switching screenmodes from PAL interlaced to non-interlaced. Now it works perfect with Amiga.

11 September 2021, 14:49	#59
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,861	This is great news. Is there a sampling mode that is well suited for the Amiga's max horizontal overscan?

11 September 2021, 17:24	#60
Aardvark Registered User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Finland Posts: 634	Not sure what you meant by sampling mode, but i posted photos of max overscan sizes with different Retrotinks output res modes. https://ibb.co/km13bwc 724 x 280 in 576p mode is the best it can do, other modes are more cropped.

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