New Dumping Disk

fiath · 07 March 2003, 09:36

New version of the dumping tools is available. Main details in the next WIP, but basically:

Machines with interrupt generating hardware can now be used using a different dumping "mode".
Recognises more kickstarts from those submitted
Other dumping tool specific improvements
Scripts can now detect and disable 68060 CPU caches
Added missing serial.device (doh)
Documents updated
Other bits and pieces

Interestingly enough, this is the first time the actual dumping tool has been updated since it was first made public! That is about 1 1/2 years I guess, and the only reason for that is because we were getting so many people with interrupt generating hardware. Pretty cool huh?

Mr "tech" IFW certainly did good on his research!

The included documents have basically had a complete rewrite, there was a lot of redundant stuff in there, and a lot of things we wanted to make clear. Also all the stuff we now know about getting PC2Amiga working properly (thanks §ane!).

Unfortunately now they are rather comprehensive, but we want to make sure this stuff is done right! Don't let it put you off.

If you fancy dumping games for C.A.P.S. then just send a mail to contributions@caps-project.org and we will get the dumping tools out to you.

Steve · 07 March 2003, 11:44

Great stuff.

I'll give it a try with one of my games and see what happens. Did my eyes decieve me or does it say in the docs that you are actually able to fix broken original disks. I have an old original Dungeon Master (NTSC) which only loads so far so it seems quite broken. Should I dump this or not?

fiath · 07 March 2003, 13:44

Yes, when the mastering tools are available, you will be able to fix your broken disks providing the IPF is available. This is one of the most important goals of C.A.P.S. However, it will be a little while before it becomes available. Hopefully in the short term.

Please dump your Dungeon Master though, there is a possibility that the dumping tool can read what the game loader cannot, and thus there is a possibility that your non-loading disk still produces a 100% correct disk image. I'll admit, this is fairly unlikely, it depends on the error and your drive - but still possible and has happened on numerous occasions AFAIR.

Have you tried opening the disk shutter, rotating the disk all the way round while blowing inside? The "spin and blow trick" (tm). Do at your own risk, but many errors are down to dust and dirt that can be removed by doing this. Try it and test the game again - you never know!

IFW · 07 March 2003, 15:26

Interrupt generating hardware actually is "rogue interrupt" generating hardware, ie devices generating interrupts that are not controllable by either the standard KS or through IRQ registers, These uncontrollable devices are quite often present on higher specced ppc cards etc. Since one member finally got hold on one such card we could finally fix the dumping tool for them.

Recognises more kickstarts == Recognises all kickstarts submitted

Steve · 07 March 2003, 19:06

Quote:

Originally posted by fiath
Yes, when the mastering tools are available, you will be able to fix your broken disks providing the IPF is available. This is one of the most important goals of C.A.P.S. However, it will be a little while before it becomes available. Hopefully in the short term.

Oh right. I can't wait for that to be released. What an awesome tool that will be. Any idea on roughly how long it will be till it's ready to be released. Weeks, months maybe?

What happens after I send you my RAW files for you guys to investigate? Will I recieve the preserved IPF file of my disk when it has been investigated, checked and mastered? I hope I don't have to wait for the official Caps release before I could get hold of my IPF file.

I've just spent most of today dumping some different DM games and will upload the RAW files to your FTP soon so you can have a look at them. It seems to take about an hour to do 1 disk which is much longer than I expected. Still if it manages to grab every little detail about the disk then I'm not complaining.

IFW · 07 March 2003, 19:39

1 hour?!?
It is a few minutes more like and I use a standard A1200 with 8mb fastram. It sound like you are dumping using a very slow serial connection?
If you have a harddisk I'm positive you'd prefer to dumping to harddisk instead of using a remote location, then use a faster method of transfer, than the one currently being used (serial?).

Please consult with Fiath, 1 hour per disk is definitely not normal.

Steve · 07 March 2003, 19:43

Quote:

Originally posted by IFW
1 hour?!?
It is a few minutes more like and I use a standard A1200 with 8mb fastram. It sound like you are dumping using a very slow serial connection?
If you have a harddisk I'm positive you'd prefer to dumping to harddisk instead of using a remote location, then use a faster method of transfer, than the one currently being used (serial?).

I have an unexpanded Amiga 1200 with no extra RAM, no accelerator and no hard drive. I'm using a serial cable set to 38400 bits per second so it looks like I'm stuck with 1 hour per disk.

IFW · 07 March 2003, 19:52

Actually the speed is due to using the serial link unfortunately

Is there any way you could use a parallel cable instead?
I used a simple (pc-laplink: read cheap in any shop) laplink cable for dumping and it was just a few minutes, no accelerator involved. I suggest you discuss using the parallel link if possible, as dumping a disk for an hour (actually dumping for a few minutes, than transferring it in 50-55 mins over serial...) can take an eternity for a lot of disks.

I think there is a fast serial device available for the amiga (baud bandit?),but I don't know how compatible it is with a pc.

Please consult with Fiath or anyone who may be able to help to set up a parallel link or a fast serial link if such thing exist, the speed difference will be shocking to say the least... :eek

fiath · 08 March 2003, 01:54

Serial Link:

Yes, I guess nearly an hour is about right unfortunately.

You can change the serial speed though...

Edit the file: CAPSTransfer:devs/dosdrivers/pcs

on the dumping disk and change the 38400 to either 57600 or 115200. The 56K setting should work, but the 115200 probably won't.

Then change the PC-side PC2Amiga settings to the same.

IPF's:

Quite a lot has to happen before the IPF's are released, it is not just a case of converting the file unfortunately. We decided to expend this enegy on those games we have scans for first.

So, I am afraid that DM needs to wait until we have scans for it. Then we will put the effort into verifying, converting to IPF + all the other stuff.

There is an good side-effect to this though, if we released the IPF files without scans, do you think that people would bother doing the scans? Well it is less likely anyway - at least this way we can ensure that the game is complete as released!

Sorry, but this is the way it has to be if we want to keep things fair to everybody.

Mastering Tool:

I have no idea when this will be available. Not in the immediate future at least.

§ane · 08 March 2003, 02:21

Quote:

Originally posted by IFW
If you have a harddisk I'm positive you'd prefer to dumping to harddisk instead of using a remote location

What? That's supported now?! If that is the case, cool, I will dump to HDD and transfer them over night instead of tying the PC up in the daytime.

fiath · 08 March 2003, 02:32

Well.. It is supported, but indirectly.

Basically the scripts wrapped around the dumping tool actually dump to RAM first, then dump is moved to HD. So you need 6Mb+ RAM to keep the image in memory until the dump is finished.

AFAIK dumping directly to HD will never be supported, because the bus activity would screw up the dumping. I am sure IFW could supply more info on this though.

IFW · 08 March 2003, 11:28

Yes, I meant "indirect" hdd dumping and you need some extra memory for that.
Hdd communication has some timing constraints that changes by the driver, the type of hddd and other factors. Normally the OS takes care of that, but if you happen to disable the OS suddenly the process gets out of sync, and the hdd controller may refuse to accept data for writing/data gets interrupted during transfer->hdd corruption. You don't want that.

§ane · 09 March 2003, 09:52

Thanks for clearing that up.

Seems I'm in need of a RAM expansion card for the A1200.

Steve · 11 March 2003, 10:34

Quote:

Originally posted by IFW
Actually the speed is due to using the serial link unfortunately
Is there any way you could use a parallel cable instead?
I used a simple (pc-laplink: read cheap in any shop) laplink cable for dumping and it was just a few minutes, no accelerator involved. I suggest you discuss using the parallel link if possible, as dumping a disk for an hour (actually dumping for a few minutes, than transferring it in 50-55 mins over serial...) can take an eternity for a lot of disks.

Right, I've managed to get hold of an Amiga printer cable. I think that's a parallel cable also. One end plugs into the Amiga pefectly fine although the other end is expecting a printer socket. There are no pins just a long line made up of one blue connector. Will I be able to get hold of some sort of adapter so I can plug this end into the PC?

fiath · 11 March 2003, 13:08

Err... That is the wrong type of cable I am afraid!

You need a "parallel null-modem" or otherwise called a "4-wire laplink" cable.

This will have a 25-pin D-type connector at both ends that will fit in both the Amiga and PC parallel ports.

I think you might be able to get one from Maplin, or other electronics shops.

Update: Here is a link to the required cable on the UK Maplin site:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/mod...98&modulecode=

IFW · 11 March 2003, 13:17

Remember it is a pc accessory these days, so no need for "special" Amiga equipment at all.
Actually I bought my cable in a hypermarket while buying food or something like that and it was piled among pc accessories as 4 wire laplink cable...
So it is very, very common as a pc accessory and very cheap.

Steve · 11 March 2003, 13:56

Doh.

Ok I'll look for one of these cables. What is the speed difference roughly between serial and parallel? Why is parallel so much faster than serial? So far I've dumped 9 games for Caps.

killergorilla · 11 March 2003, 14:05

What speed are we looking at for a parallel port? I'm buying a new (2nd hand) Amiga next week and was considering connecting it to my PC for data transfer.

I do have an A1200 at the moment but have always transferred data using floppy disks (not a lot of fun) or CDRs (not at all fun with MakeCD)

The comp I'm buying also has a fast serial port I believe, any chance that this would be faster than parallel transfer? (Not sure which model it is though)

It also has a 100MB zip drive, but I don't have one for my PC and don't want to shell out an extra £60 just to transfer stuff.

IFW · 11 March 2003, 14:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve
Doh.
Ok I'll look for one of these cables. What is the speed difference roughly between serial and parallel? Why is parallel so much faster than serial? So far I've dumped 9 games for Caps.

Depends on the application.
Using pc2amiga and the speed description you gave on the serial link roughly 50+ minutes/disk :eek

fiath · 11 March 2003, 15:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve
Why is parallel so much faster than serial?

Parallel has 4 lines transferring data whereas serial only has one.

I don't know the exact speeds, but I believe there is a reference in the PC2Amiga documentation.

07 March 2003, 09:36	#1
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	New Dumping Disk New version of the dumping tools is available. Main details in the next WIP, but basically: Machines with interrupt generating hardware can now be used using a different dumping "mode". Recognises more kickstarts from those submitted Other dumping tool specific improvements Scripts can now detect and disable 68060 CPU caches Added missing serial.device (doh) Documents updated Other bits and pieces Interestingly enough, this is the first time the actual dumping tool has been updated since it was first made public! That is about 1 1/2 years I guess, and the only reason for that is because we were getting so many people with interrupt generating hardware. Pretty cool huh? Mr "tech" IFW certainly did good on his research! The included documents have basically had a complete rewrite, there was a lot of redundant stuff in there, and a lot of things we wanted to make clear. Also all the stuff we now know about getting PC2Amiga working properly (thanks §ane!). Unfortunately now they are rather comprehensive, but we want to make sure this stuff is done right! Don't let it put you off. If you fancy dumping games for C.A.P.S. then just send a mail to contributions@caps-project.org and we will get the dumping tools out to you.

07 March 2003, 11:44	#2
Steve I Identify as an Ewok Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: North Lincolnshire Age: 45 Posts: 2,356	Excellent Great stuff. I'll give it a try with one of my games and see what happens. Did my eyes decieve me or does it say in the docs that you are actually able to fix broken original disks. I have an old original Dungeon Master (NTSC) which only loads so far so it seems quite broken. Should I dump this or not?

11 March 2003, 13:08	#15
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Err... That is the wrong type of cable I am afraid! You need a "parallel null-modem" or otherwise called a "4-wire laplink" cable. This will have a 25-pin D-type connector at both ends that will fit in both the Amiga and PC parallel ports. I think you might be able to get one from Maplin, or other electronics shops. Update: Here is a link to the required cable on the UK Maplin site: http://www.maplin.co.uk/products/mod...98&modulecode= Last edited by fiath; 11 March 2003 at 13:13.

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07 March 2003, 13:44	#3
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Yes, when the mastering tools are available, you will be able to fix your broken disks providing the IPF is available. This is one of the most important goals of C.A.P.S. However, it will be a little while before it becomes available. Hopefully in the short term. Please dump your Dungeon Master though, there is a possibility that the dumping tool can read what the game loader cannot, and thus there is a possibility that your non-loading disk still produces a 100% correct disk image. I'll admit, this is fairly unlikely, it depends on the error and your drive - but still possible and has happened on numerous occasions AFAIR. Have you tried opening the disk shutter, rotating the disk all the way round while blowing inside? The "spin and blow trick" (tm). Do at your own risk, but many errors are down to dust and dirt that can be removed by doing this. Try it and test the game again - you never know!

07 March 2003, 15:26	#4
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Interrupt generating hardware actually is "rogue interrupt" generating hardware, ie devices generating interrupts that are not controllable by either the standard KS or through IRQ registers, These uncontrollable devices are quite often present on higher specced ppc cards etc. Since one member finally got hold on one such card we could finally fix the dumping tool for them. Recognises more kickstarts == Recognises all kickstarts submitted

07 March 2003, 19:39	#6
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	1 hour?!? It is a few minutes more like and I use a standard A1200 with 8mb fastram. It sound like you are dumping using a very slow serial connection? If you have a harddisk I'm positive you'd prefer to dumping to harddisk instead of using a remote location, then use a faster method of transfer, than the one currently being used (serial?). Please consult with Fiath, 1 hour per disk is definitely not normal.

07 March 2003, 19:52	#8
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Actually the speed is due to using the serial link unfortunately Is there any way you could use a parallel cable instead? I used a simple (pc-laplink: read cheap in any shop) laplink cable for dumping and it was just a few minutes, no accelerator involved. I suggest you discuss using the parallel link if possible, as dumping a disk for an hour (actually dumping for a few minutes, than transferring it in 50-55 mins over serial...) can take an eternity for a lot of disks. I think there is a fast serial device available for the amiga (baud bandit?),but I don't know how compatible it is with a pc. Please consult with Fiath or anyone who may be able to help to set up a parallel link or a fast serial link if such thing exist, the speed difference will be shocking to say the least... :eek

08 March 2003, 01:54	#9
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Serial Link: Yes, I guess nearly an hour is about right unfortunately. You can change the serial speed though... Edit the file: CAPSTransfer:devs/dosdrivers/pcs on the dumping disk and change the 38400 to either 57600 or 115200. The 56K setting should work, but the 115200 probably won't. Then change the PC-side PC2Amiga settings to the same. IPF's: Quite a lot has to happen before the IPF's are released, it is not just a case of converting the file unfortunately. We decided to expend this enegy on those games we have scans for first. So, I am afraid that DM needs to wait until we have scans for it. Then we will put the effort into verifying, converting to IPF + all the other stuff. There is an good side-effect to this though, if we released the IPF files without scans, do you think that people would bother doing the scans? Well it is less likely anyway - at least this way we can ensure that the game is complete as released! Sorry, but this is the way it has to be if we want to keep things fair to everybody. Mastering Tool: I have no idea when this will be available. Not in the immediate future at least.

08 March 2003, 02:32	#11
fiath Moderator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: South East / UK Age: 46 Posts: 1,930	Well.. It is supported, but indirectly. Basically the scripts wrapped around the dumping tool actually dump to RAM first, then dump is moved to HD. So you need 6Mb+ RAM to keep the image in memory until the dump is finished. AFAIK dumping directly to HD will never be supported, because the bus activity would screw up the dumping. I am sure IFW could supply more info on this though.

08 March 2003, 11:28	#12
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Yes, I meant "indirect" hdd dumping and you need some extra memory for that. Hdd communication has some timing constraints that changes by the driver, the type of hddd and other factors. Normally the OS takes care of that, but if you happen to disable the OS suddenly the process gets out of sync, and the hdd controller may refuse to accept data for writing/data gets interrupted during transfer->hdd corruption. You don't want that.

09 March 2003, 09:52	#13
§ane Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: . Age: 44 Posts: 246	Thanks for clearing that up. Seems I'm in need of a RAM expansion card for the A1200.

11 March 2003, 13:17	#16
IFW Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: ... Age: 52 Posts: 1,838	Remember it is a pc accessory these days, so no need for "special" Amiga equipment at all. Actually I bought my cable in a hypermarket while buying food or something like that and it was piled among pc accessories as 4 wire laplink cable... So it is very, very common as a pc accessory and very cheap.

11 March 2003, 13:56	#17
Steve I Identify as an Ewok Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: North Lincolnshire Age: 45 Posts: 2,356	Doh. Ok I'll look for one of these cables. What is the speed difference roughly between serial and parallel? Why is parallel so much faster than serial? So far I've dumped 9 games for Caps.

11 March 2003, 14:05	#18
killergorilla Lesser Talent Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: UK Age: 42 Posts: 7,957	What speed are we looking at for a parallel port? I'm buying a new (2nd hand) Amiga next week and was considering connecting it to my PC for data transfer. I do have an A1200 at the moment but have always transferred data using floppy disks (not a lot of fun) or CDRs (not at all fun with MakeCD) The comp I'm buying also has a fast serial port I believe, any chance that this would be faster than parallel transfer? (Not sure which model it is though) It also has a 100MB zip drive, but I don't have one for my PC and don't want to shell out an extra £60 just to transfer stuff.

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