Most efficient way to cool a MC 68060 CPU?

eXeler0 · 19 April 2015, 02:25

Hey there ;-)
So about the 060... The old PGA packaging (and material used for it) that was used at the time is not the easiest to cool efficiently.

Curiously, even the first mask/ version (XC...) which is manufactured at 0.6um runs pretty fine @50MHz with no cooler. But even the latest mask manufactured at 0.42um will need a cooler @75Mhz and probably a heat sink @66MHz.

Question to those of you out there who have experimented with various coolers / sinks etc.. What is the best way too cool a (latest mask) 68060 if you want to overclock it? (Rumours on The Internets have it that 106MHz has been reached by some dude)
(And how high can you go without increasing voltage?)

First, whats the "best cooling trick" any category.. (Heat sink? Fan? Dry Ice? Water Cooling? Liquid Nitrogen? Magic beans? etc..?)
Second: Best cooling when it's sitting on an Apollo 1260 in a desktop Amiga 1200 case (space is tight under that keyboard..).

Cheers and thanx
/eX

wXR · 19 April 2015, 12:42

I'm also interested in better understanding this. Fans in Amigas do not impress me; what are better, more space age ways to do this?

Michael Sykes · 19 April 2015, 18:12

Maybe a custom solution with heatpipes like in consoles.

Megol · 19 April 2015, 18:40

Given your listing of liquid nitrogen I guess you really mean the most efficient way?
Slowly grid the package until the die is exposed then use spray nozzles to apply a thin film of a coolant liquid onto the die. The coolant will then evaporate - a very efficient way to remove excess heat. The liquid will probably need to be cooled down to liquid form for a practical (read: closed loop) system.

But the best realistic solution would be the heatpipe one, close to the same efficiency but much easier to do. It also works by boiling a liquid but can't by design be as efficient as a custom cooling system. Not that it matters for a 060 - they simply don't get hot enough.

eXeler0 · 19 April 2015, 20:58

Megol, thanx.
Well, the first part of my question was more theoretical because Im not sure what the best way to cool that ceramical PGA is... and the second is of a more practical nature. How to actually use something that is usable in the tight space on an Apollo accelerator. You cant even fit a normal fan unless its offset to the far end of the chip.
Im actually pretty sure that whoever managed to clock it beyond 80MHz did it in a tower case.

Michael Sykes · 28 April 2015, 01:50

What about cold plates?
Or an old Laptop cooler like this one.
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/6...EAT-b-font.jpg

eXeler0 · 28 April 2015, 12:55

The ceramic enclosure of the 040/060 is different to modern packages where metal is used to disperse heat so questions about this monster here.. however lots of people get their 040s working just fine by gluing rather simple fans on top of the CPU. So the big radial fan in your pic can probably get the job done :-)

Btw, speaking of glue. What would be a good glue / thermal paste to use on 040/060?

Michael Sykes · 28 April 2015, 23:18

My pic was not about the fan but more about the very flat metalpad and the heatpipe.
So you dont have to worry about the limited space. The copper pipe will send the heat from the cpu-pad to the radiator underneath the fan.
To attach anything you could use one of those self glue thermal pads and secure everything with something like cable straps.
Sounds a bit MacGuyverish? Thats Amiga - get used to it... ;-)

eXeler0 · 30 April 2015, 13:10

You have a point Michael. Given the space restrictions of the Apollo 1260 board for example, a metal plate with a custom heatpipe probably is the only viable solution for achieving high clock speeds in a desktop A1200.
If only we could 3d print Copper ;-)

Michael Sykes · 01 May 2015, 03:00

Call NASA...
http://www.nasa.gov/marshall/news/na...gine-part.html

eXeler0 · 01 May 2015, 15:22

:-) neat, now where's that phone number to NASA I wrote down the other day ;-)

Btw, Ive been browsing laptop heatpipe passive coolers on eBay and AliExpress, theres a bunch of stuff out there that looks decent but its not likely Ill find something that exactly fits my needs.

Megol · 01 May 2015, 15:39

Most notebook/laptop coolers aren't passive, even very efficient machines tend to have a small fan to keep air circulating. If it's noise you don't want then it would be possible to run the fan slowly.

eXeler0 · 01 May 2015, 17:44

Megol, its mostly about lack of space. Noise is of secondary concern.
I have an Apollo with a socketed 060, there's not many milimiters between one of the edges of the 060 and the bottom side of the keyboard.
A custom design could easily solve it but it wont be easy or cheap to get it just right. (Unless someone has a brilliant idea, in which case I'm all ears. ;-)

19 April 2015, 02:25	#1
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	Most efficient way to cool a MC 68060 CPU? Hey there ;-) So about the 060... The old PGA packaging (and material used for it) that was used at the time is not the easiest to cool efficiently. Curiously, even the first mask/ version (XC...) which is manufactured at 0.6um runs pretty fine @50MHz with no cooler. But even the latest mask manufactured at 0.42um will need a cooler @75Mhz and probably a heat sink @66MHz. Question to those of you out there who have experimented with various coolers / sinks etc.. What is the best way too cool a (latest mask) 68060 if you want to overclock it? (Rumours on The Internets have it that 106MHz has been reached by some dude) (And how high can you go without increasing voltage?) First, whats the "best cooling trick" any category.. (Heat sink? Fan? Dry Ice? Water Cooling? Liquid Nitrogen? Magic beans? etc..?) Second: Best cooling when it's sitting on an Apollo 1260 in a desktop Amiga 1200 case (space is tight under that keyboard..). Cheers and thanx /eX Last edited by eXeler0; 19 April 2015 at 12:43.

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19 April 2015, 12:42	#2
wXR Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New York Posts: 552	I'm also interested in better understanding this. Fans in Amigas do not impress me; what are better, more space age ways to do this?

19 April 2015, 18:12	#3
Michael Sykes WinUAE end user Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Bremen Age: 44 Posts: 649	Maybe a custom solution with heatpipes like in consoles.

19 April 2015, 18:40	#4
Megol Registered User Join Date: May 2014 Location: inside the emulator Posts: 377	Given your listing of liquid nitrogen I guess you really mean the most efficient way? Slowly grid the package until the die is exposed then use spray nozzles to apply a thin film of a coolant liquid onto the die. The coolant will then evaporate - a very efficient way to remove excess heat. The liquid will probably need to be cooled down to liquid form for a practical (read: closed loop) system. But the best realistic solution would be the heatpipe one, close to the same efficiency but much easier to do. It also works by boiling a liquid but can't by design be as efficient as a custom cooling system. Not that it matters for a 060 - they simply don't get hot enough.

19 April 2015, 20:58	#5
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	Megol, thanx. Well, the first part of my question was more theoretical because Im not sure what the best way to cool that ceramical PGA is... and the second is of a more practical nature. How to actually use something that is usable in the tight space on an Apollo accelerator. You cant even fit a normal fan unless its offset to the far end of the chip. Im actually pretty sure that whoever managed to clock it beyond 80MHz did it in a tower case.

28 April 2015, 01:50	#6
Michael Sykes WinUAE end user Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Bremen Age: 44 Posts: 649	What about cold plates? Or an old Laptop cooler like this one. http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/6...EAT-b-font.jpg

28 April 2015, 12:55	#7
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	The ceramic enclosure of the 040/060 is different to modern packages where metal is used to disperse heat so questions about this monster here.. however lots of people get their 040s working just fine by gluing rather simple fans on top of the CPU. So the big radial fan in your pic can probably get the job done :-) Btw, speaking of glue. What would be a good glue / thermal paste to use on 040/060?

28 April 2015, 23:18	#8
Michael Sykes WinUAE end user Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Bremen Age: 44 Posts: 649	My pic was not about the fan but more about the very flat metalpad and the heatpipe. So you dont have to worry about the limited space. The copper pipe will send the heat from the cpu-pad to the radiator underneath the fan. To attach anything you could use one of those self glue thermal pads and secure everything with something like cable straps. Sounds a bit MacGuyverish? Thats Amiga - get used to it... ;-)

30 April 2015, 13:10	#9
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	You have a point Michael. Given the space restrictions of the Apollo 1260 board for example, a metal plate with a custom heatpipe probably is the only viable solution for achieving high clock speeds in a desktop A1200. If only we could 3d print Copper ;-)

01 May 2015, 03:00	#10
Michael Sykes WinUAE end user Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Bremen Age: 44 Posts: 649	Call NASA... http://www.nasa.gov/marshall/news/na...gine-part.html

01 May 2015, 15:22	#11
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	:-) neat, now where's that phone number to NASA I wrote down the other day ;-) Btw, Ive been browsing laptop heatpipe passive coolers on eBay and AliExpress, theres a bunch of stuff out there that looks decent but its not likely Ill find something that exactly fits my needs.

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01 May 2015, 15:39	#12
Megol Registered User Join Date: May 2014 Location: inside the emulator Posts: 377	Most notebook/laptop coolers aren't passive, even very efficient machines tend to have a small fan to keep air circulating. If it's noise you don't want then it would be possible to run the fan slowly.

01 May 2015, 17:44	#13
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,948	Megol, its mostly about lack of space. Noise is of secondary concern. I have an Apollo with a socketed 060, there's not many milimiters between one of the edges of the 060 and the bottom side of the keyboard. A custom design could easily solve it but it wont be easy or cheap to get it just right. (Unless someone has a brilliant idea, in which case I'm all ears. ;-)