Help me survive in DM - Chaos Strikes Back

[NewDeli]

Hi,


I just started playing CSB and once I entered the "lair", my team had to face a bunch of round-shaped monsters with apparently a lot of hit points.
Additionally, I suppose it's possible to grab a torch somewhere because it's completely dark in there.

I could escape the monsters for a few seconds, find a knife and coins, which apparently open the magnetic doors. Behind these doors are small rooms with various items (no weapons, AFAIK), so I could attack the monsters one by one. Still, one knife for 4 adventurers is not much .


I am new to Dungeon Master, I am aware it's recommended to play DM1 a lot in the first place, but it's Chaos that I would like to play right now.

Anyway, the characters start without any weapon, so may be someone can explain in what way importing veteran DM1 characters would make a big difference (better stats ?).

[NovaCoder]

Hiya,

Basically you're screwed

I think the game designers were having a bit of a laugh at the start of CSB because you're dumped in a pitch-black room with no weapons and loads of nasties. The only real way to survive is to start off with very powerful characters from DM1, then it all becomes easy

Maybe someboy could give you one of the saved game files for DM1?

[NewDeli]

I know now how to cast spells (at first, I thought the arrow next to the spell field was there to "validate" the spell, but it erases runes).

I can defeat 2 or 3 armored worms with fire balls, but the fighters of my team get poisoned.
VI BRO is the spell for anti-poison, but I won't be allow to cast it until I find an empty flask.

On the floor and in the rooms which magnetic doors are opened by coins are some interesting items to pick up, but I didn't find any empty flask.

Anyone has a clue ?
I can understand that this game needs good reflexes and extensive knowledge about other "realtime" dungeoning games, still it seems a bit upside down that magic is used so much in the first levels with no obvious material weapon to fight your way, but I assume it will get back to normal after a while.

Oh, and if someone could tell me how to open the chest that lays in the middle of this first level, and if items can be purchased as I have read in a guide (I suspect its author really meant : establish a trade-off of equipment for a more or less quick moving party).


As of now, I can tell you a bit about my intentions :
I plan to swap the German utility disk with an English one from the whdload package (with all due respect to the person who made it, it wouldn't have affected the slave, as the version which was patched from an ADF cracked by Betrayal was in English, if I ain't mistaken).

I would like to "enjoy" the game a bit before doing a repack, not mastering it like crazy, but not dying every 15 seconds.
I feel I need to know what I am talking about before providing additional material (which I will put both in the zone and on my online download pad).
(in other words, no worries I won't be posting about my progress in the game for very long )

[Sensi]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

I am new to Dungeon Master, I am aware it's recommended to play DM1 a lot in the first place, but it's Chaos that I would like to play right now.

You have no chance in CSB without finishing DM1. No chance.

[Jgames]

Dm is better than CSB;

[NewDeli]

I could find some useful info in the official DM forum.

...and stumbled upon DMute, a tool which "allows full arbitary editing of your (my) characters (portrait, stats, items carried etc), the dungeon layout (corridors, doors, pits etc) and contents (monsters, items, wall features etc). "


So may be I should rephrase my question :

"Is it possible to play a Chaos game with DM Characters (with portraits, not just big stats)"
preferably under the Amiga (fun to see CSB ported to MS-DOS though).

[NewDeli]

On this page, I could find an impressing interactive walkthrough. Just as I suspected, the "expert way" to kill those things is to move around them a lot, to avoid being poison bitten, thus practicing your Ninja skills.

Several minutes of jiggling just for these three worms, gee .
There's a sword behind one of the gate and a trap that generates more worms.
I guess those familiar with the game know all that basic stuff .


Don't really understand why the author of Return to Chaos (same guy who coded the resource editor DMute) is so modest concerning the gameplay accuracy, his work on DM trilogy is amazing.


Well, i guess that'll keep me busy for a while. Thanx.

[Thorham]

Deleauvive, can I ask why you don't just start with Dungeon Master? It will become a lot more challenging later in the game.

As for your question, yes, you can. I tried it importing a DM party myself (no knowing the answer), and heroes, stats and portraits are imported properly.

[NewDeli]

DM is said to bear a very linear progression.

CSB looks more fun to play, in the sense that you are perpetually challenged and randomness is plummeting. Also, CSB characters and monsters are more insane compared to the classic party from a traditional AD&D game.


If you ask me why I am not too enthusiastic about playing the Amiga version, here it is :

• I don't like the fact that you loose health when you hit a wall, it's simply not realistic (fixed in RTC)
• The ReadMe of the WHDload version says your saved games may become scrambled (I assume it's due to the strong copy protection of the original)

So may be, to get acquainted with game mechanisms I'll play DM a bit since it is proposed in RTC, but that's CSB that retains the fun, AFAIK.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

DM is said to bear a very linear progression.

Yes, DM is reasonably linear.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

CSB looks more fun to play, in the sense that you are perpetually challenged and randomness is plummeting.

It's also a lot more difficult.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

[*]I don't like the fact that you loose health when you hit a wall, it's simply not realistic (fixed in RTC)

Yes, it is. What happens if you keep running into a wall time and time again? You get hurt. Same in DM.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

[*]The ReadMe of the WHDload version says your saved games may become scrambled (I assume it's due to the strong copy protection of the original)

Sounds like a bad WHDLoad client to me. I personally play the HD patch from Aminet. But, because of the copy protection it's probably better to play a peecee version like RTC, or better, CSBWin (original, ported from Atari ST version). Of course, I play on Amiga

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

So may be, to get acquainted with game mechanisms I'll play DM a bit since it is proposed in RTC, but that's CSB that retains the fun, AFAIK.

Yes, I'd play some DM first to get a feeling for the game. As said, CSB is much harder than DM, and a beginner can already get his butt kicked in DM, so I don't think CSB would be very doable anyway. I can solo DM with any character, and still CSB isn't easy

[NewDeli]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Sounds like a bad WHDLoad client to me.

Mate, you can't say that from a patch coded by my fellow Amigain JOTD chief patcher. "Sounds like JOTD did what he ought to do with that patch taking into consideration the crack was not complete" <- better .

Originally Posted by Thorham

I personally play the HD patch from Aminet

A HD patch ? mmmh yummy
Wow wait, why am I the last to know about these things ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

better, CSBWin

The author of CSBWin didn't bother to present the resources from his game very elegantly, and you can't edit the preferences easily.
RTC, although his author pretends not having had access to the source code looks more polished.
Both have interesting things to offer, but RTC wins on the purely "awesome remake" department.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I can solo DM with any character, and still CSB isn't easy

Longplay, or it didn't happen .

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

Mate, you can't say that from a patch coded by my fellow Amigain JOTD chief patcher. "Sounds like JOTD did what he ought to do with that patch taking into consideration the crack was not complete" <- better .

Right, it uses a cracked version of the game, I didn't know that

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

A HD patch ? mmmh yummy
Wow wait, why am I the last to know about these things ?

I can upload it for you if you want it (including the version of DM I use, but it's in English). It has two backdraws: 1) When you save your game, you have to exit the disk menu, or your save game might get corrupted (yeah, I know, go figure ), because sometimes the written file isn't closed untill you click on cancel after saving. In other words do not save, and then click quit, this can go wrong. 2) You can't exit to the Workbench, although it's possible that I've missed this in the docs.

In the end both the hd patch and the WHDLoad version aren't perfect, however the patch doesn't kill the system, so you retain your mouse speed settings and you can use it with sermouse. Those two reasons are the main reason for me to use the patch.

Alternatively, meynaf has done a full conversion of the Atari ST version. No patch, no porblems (except slow loading of the dungeon). Perhaps that one may be useful to you.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

The author of CSBWin didn't bother to present the resources from his game very elegantly, and you can't edit the preferences easily.
RTC, although his author pretends not having had access to the source code looks more polished.
Both have interesting things to offer, but RTC wins on the purely "awesome remake" department.

Yes, RTC is more polished, but the game mechanics aren't execatly the same. CSBWin was made by recourcing the Atari ST version and converting the assembler code directly to C++, which means that the game mechanics are exactly the same. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

Longplay, or it didn't happen .

I don't have one However, DM isn't really that much more difficult when using only one character, because that single character becomes a lot stronger than four charcters, simply because one char is doing all the work and is therefore getting all the experience points. Four characters share the work load and thus each character gains fewer levels.

[Sensi]

[ Show youtube player ]

[ Show youtube player ]

[NewDeli]

@ Sensi
no more watching of speedrun for me, ESPECIALLY for games I consider already too fast-paced. As it is 3D, I want to see what's happening around me, take notice of how the player casts spells, maneuvers his team to kill the enemies...

That was a good laugh when I used to despise DM, but now "here comes the summertime, I've opened the door" as would sing Ace of Bass.


@Thorham
Concerning CSBwin VS RTC, just look at the prefs file from both games. With RTC, you can edit the prefs. easily.
Then, go to this site, click on CSB have a look at this list :
It doesn't say much about which files to pick up to play from the latest version, right (looks messy like an Aminet directory in fact )?

Also both were ported in a similar coding fashion, if I may say so. And, and... With RTC you don't get distracted if you press one of the arrow key once more by accident (I know you know bumping into walls isn't about realism in THAT sense).

I think the author of RTC made a big mistake by enunciating his game has inaccuracies. After this somehow awkward statement, he explains that it's about stats, not about the gameplay per se.

And I think it's bs, that he got hold of the source code from the authors... May be he had been seriously annoyed in the past by people asking him for the source code...

Anyway, I picked CSBwin for its nice "instant replay" feature, and will play RTC in DM mode, until I consider I am ready for CSB.

Can you tell me where I can dl Meynaf's version, plz ? As for the Mortevielle Manor, I always considered the color palette of the ST was more adequate (may be the ST could have been considered king for gloomy, depressing games VS flashy ones). Plus, there seem to be a few minor advantages running the ST version (moar items ).


Last, concerning JOTD patch, I am speaking out of my mind, please take this as I joke. I didn't even load his patch. I just noticed from his ReadMe that saving the game needed some extra care, that's it.

However, the repack (WHD) of CSB should bear the English version of the utility, that's why I decided to put the disk in the Zone.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

Then, go to this siteclick on CSB have a look at this list :

Oh noes Yes, bloody awfull, I know. Get it from the Dungeon Master Encyclopaedia on this page: CSBWin. Should be a little less clutterd

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

With RTC you don't get distracted if you press one of the arrow key once more by accident (I know you know bumping into walls isn't about realism in THAT sense).

To me it's part of the game. As for the realism, I do think it's just about the realism, what else could it be No, I'm serious about that

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

I think the author of RTC made a big mistake by enunciating his game has inaccuracies. After this somehow awkward statement, he explains that it's about stats, not about the gameplay per se.

Okay, I need to seriously look into this, because RTC is more interesting than CSBWin.

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

Can you tell me where I can dl Meynaf's version, plz ?

Meynaf's version in this archive, together with a bunch of other (floppy) versions: DM-Game-Amiga.rar. Just look in the harddisk drawer. Just remeber that the executable file is a CLI file, so you can run it from Workbench as long as it doesn't have it's own icon (it will crash if it has one).

[NewDeli]

If you play AD&D from the book as a DM, you can allow yourself to do a lot of things to stimulate their imagination, including adding very nasty traps to your dungeons, but you can not tell them "while trying to reach the door, you bumped into that wall, so -1 hit point for you".

...Especially since alcohol is not (yet) taken into account when dungeoning (well, you can buy a pint in taverns, that's about it ).

Thx for this version, I'll post a screenshot or two eventually.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

...but you can not tel them "while trying to reach the door, you bumped into that wall, so -1 hit point for you".

No, it would be 'You ran too fast, so that you couldn't stop soon enough and bumped into the door. You lose 1 hit point'. Yet, since this is a realtime game, that comparison doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by Deleauvive

If you play AD&D from the book as a DM, with real people, you can allow yourself to do a lot of things to stimulate their imagination, including adding very nasty traps to your dungeons, but you can not tel them "while trying to reach the door, you bumped into that wall, so -1 hit point for you".

Dungeon Master isn't based on the Dungeons and Dragons mechanics (I think Eye of the Beholder is), they're two seperate games, so DMs designers could actually do what they want and they did.

Look at the difference in stats and classes for example:

DM		D&D

Stats:

Health		Hit points
Stamina		Magic points
Mana		Armour class

Strength	Strength
Dexterity	Dexterity
Wisdom		Constitution
Vitality	Wisdom
Anti magic	Inteligence
Anti fire	Charisma

Classes:

Fighter		Fighter    - Paladin
Ninja			     Ranger
Priest		Bard
Wizard		Cleric	   - Druid
		Monk
		Thief	   - Assasin
		Magic User - Illusionist

Quite different! Also, in D&D, characters can't be all classes at the same time, in DM they can. In D&D classes have equipment/item use restrictions, in DM they don't. DM is real-time, and D&D is turn based.

DM and D&D are two very different game systems.

[TCD]

DM = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Master