The astonishing success of Mario

[Keops/Equinox]

BigD: it's probably worth noting that you are not the entire UK all by yourself

You + a bunch a friends != the entire UK gaming community in 1987

[Anubis]

Are we talking about this character?

[gimbal]

Strangely it's the large hands that makes the picture unsettling for me.

[Megalomaniac]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

This. The game design in all the mainstream Mario games on the NES is head and shoulders above anything put out on the Amiga. SMB1 nailed the level design, difficulty curve, variety, controls and even the music was excellent, really made the most of such a limited machine (the 2-button controller didn't hurt either). SMB2 is a different beast due to its origins, but no less polished or accomplished. SMB3 then went back to the SMB1 model but expanded it beyond what I thought the NES could do. And that's not even touching on Super Mario World on the SNES, a machine some people consider on a par with the Amiga.

Back then I initially couldn't really understand why people were abandoning their C64s, Speccies and Ataris for the NES. You couldn't even program it, games were expensive, and on the surface were no different to anything the home computers could offer. Then I played SMB on a friend's NES and understood. I still stuck to the home computers route as I preferred to tinker, games more suited to computers like sims and strategy, and couldn't afford NES games, but from then on was always aware of the massive gulf in gameplay between titles like Mario/Sonic/Metroid/Zelda games and anything superficially similar on the C64, Atari 8-bit or Amiga.

So no, there shouldn't be anything astonishing about the success of Mario at all. If it's caught you by surprise it could only be because you haven't really played any of them, or you give your own opinion so much weight that you mistakenly believe it represents the general population.

This pretty much matches my feelings. Even as someone who always had computers rather than consoles, and did my best to dismiss Mario and Sonic as childish, I can now accept what well-designed games they generally are. Concepts are introduced gently, controls are responsive, scrolling smooth, good difficulty curves etc - all too many Amiga platformers fail on at least one of those. Preferring Giana is like preferring Michael Bolton's covers to the originals, frankly.

What's more, the Amiga had no direct rival to Mario Kart, and certainly nothing comparable to the Zelda games - just as the SNES had nothing comparable to F1GP or Eye of the Beholder. Horses for courses, I guess.

It's striking that the NES sold roughly as many machines as the Amiga even in the UK, even with a delayed launch, the odd shoddy PAL conversion (though plenty of Amiga games are a LOT slower) and much stronger competition from the Master System than it had in the US (look into how many great PAL-only Master System games there are). The sad truth is that, if you show someone who went from (say) C64 to Megadrive (or someone who started with the Playstation or XBox) two random games in the same genre, one made Nintendo and one not, they'll probably prefer the Nintendo creation, certainly if it's SNES and possibly if it's NES.

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Megalomaniac

It's striking that the NES sold roughly as many machines as the Amiga even in the UK, even with a delayed launch, the odd shoddy PAL conversion (though plenty of Amiga games are a LOT slower) and much stronger competition from the Master System than it had in the US (look into how many great PAL-only Master System games there are). The sad truth is that, if you show someone who went from (say) C64 to Megadrive (or someone who started with the Playstation or XBox) two random games in the same genre, one made Nintendo and one not, they'll probably prefer the Nintendo creation, certainly if it's SNES and possibly if it's NES.

So share about it on a NES forum... oh yeah there aren't any outside of the US because it wasn't a big deal unless you count the fake Dendy clone consoles that did alright in Russia!

[BigD]

@Thread


The Dendy; Nintendo's true legacy to the world (especially Russia and the emerging markets)!

[BigD]

@Thread


I can't think of a more deserving company to have its Seal of Approval shoved where the sun don't shine!


That elephant logo and bright yellow plastic just screams quality! A true bargain basement product like the NES always deserved! Just remember they bought a reverse engineered version of the 6502 rather than pay MOS for official CPUs! Shrewd but an early sign of their corporate shenanigans!

Who's for a Mini Dendy console! What do you say Retro Games Ltd?

[Mixel]

The existence of clone systems just shows there was demand for the system outside of its primary territories. That shows people wanted NES games. I don’t even understand what point, if any you’re making?

I wish there’d been weird Russian clone Amigas that would’ve been awesome!

[Anubis]

BigD,

not sure that you even know what you are trying to prove.

It either was not important (to you, because from numbers it seems it was important to many kids) or it was important, so even markets that were not covered had pirated versions of console/games.

Make up your mind, please.

@gimbal - lol, exactly what makes that picture 'unsettling'.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by BigD

Just remember they bought a reverse engineered version of the 6502 rather than pay MOS for official CPUs! Shrewd but an early sign of their corporate shenanigans!

I had to fix a NES console once. What a piece of shit it was! And the games weren't worth playing.

That's how I felt about it at the time, and I've never had a reason to change my mind since.

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

I had to fix a NES console once. What a piece of shit it was! And the games weren't worth playing.

That's how I felt about it at the time, and I've never had a reason to change my mind since.

Well, if hundreds of quality titles, many with much more depth than their closest Amiga equivalents (if they even had Amiga equivalents) isn’t going to convince you then nothing would likely change your mind.

I guess you’ve always had a dislike for a lot of popular genres, maybe? Because if you like vertical shooters, jrpgs, platformers, platform adventures, etc it’d be ridiculously biased to dismiss the NES. Some of the all time greatest game soundtracks were composed for the system too.

I never even owned one, and technically prefer the SMS, but jeez they’re a great machine with a stellar library.. and shouldn’t we have all grown out of being fanboy weirdos by this point? I mean.. Really!

[Minuous]

Originally Posted by Mixel

The existence of clone systems just shows there was demand for the system outside of its primary territories. That shows people wanted NES games.

Not around here they didn't. Eg. see https://www.smh.com.au/technology/ni...07-gx6ex0.html

Originally Posted by Mixel

Well, if hundreds of quality titles, many with much more depth than their closest Amiga equivalents (if they even had Amiga equivalents) isn’t going to convince you then nothing would likely change your mind.

The best NES games were just conversions from the C64, eg. Skate or Die. Very few of the NES-only games were/are much good.

[Mixel]

Originally Posted by Minuous

The best NES games were just conversions from the C64, eg. Skate or Die. Very few of the NES-only games were/are much good.

very few C64 games were good, as a percentage of its library. Same applies to the Amiga, NES, almost every system.

Also that’s such flagrant nonsense. Oh yes, the fabled skate or die, definitely as notable as Metroid, Castlevania 3, Zelda, etc. (insert countless other notable exclusives) every single game ported from 8bit micros could be removed from the NES library and 99% of the userbase wouldn't even have noticed, let alone C64 ports.

Also whether a console did well/badly in your territory has nothing to do with its merits as a platform. 2 men and a dog had Neo Geos but they’re still freaking awesome. Wonderswan never left Japan but has some nice stuff. I can not comprehend peoples weird cementing of opinions at an early age then warping reality to fit it rather than learning to appreciate different things on their merits. There’s a lot to enjoy in all these places but people would rather just be prejudiced against them for nonsense reasons. If part of your nostalgia involves hating stuff you didn’t have then uhh.. that’s a you problem. Not a Nintendo problem. (Not you specifically, fanboys in general)

[BigD]

Originally Posted by Mixel

There’s a lot to enjoy in all these places but people would rather just be prejudiced against them for nonsense reasons. If part of your nostalgia involves hating stuff you didn’t have then uhh.. that’s a you problem. Not a Nintendo problem. (Not you specifically, fanboys in general)

I think nostalgia plays a massive part! I can emulate the NES, SNES and N64 to varying degrees but beyond a few goes on Super Mario World and Super Star Wars it doesn't seem exciting. I'd rather play Guardian CD32 than StarFox because I like arcade games not convoluted stories with frogs and bunnies as your wingmen! We've got Wing Commander for proper interactive story telling! Don't get me started on Pilot Wings! I'll take TFX or Knights of the Sky any day of the week!

[gimbal]

Pff. Imagine playing exactly the same games over and over and over and over just because they're similar to other games. That destroys the games, there is no way you won't get completely fed up with them with too much repetition. I'll gladly play all the Nintendo games too. Especially games like Pilot Wings, there simply isn't that much out there which is similar. Most flying games require you to blow stuff up, it's a welcome change of pace.

But Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana 2, Demon's Crest, Super Metroid... it'd be a shame to never play those "because Nintendo". Such gems.

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Are we talking about this character?

I can litterally hear you giggling in your basement lair while posting this

[BigD]

Originally Posted by gimbal

I'll gladly play all the Nintendo games too. Especially games like Pilot Wings, there simply isn't that much out there which is similar. Most flying games require you to blow stuff up, it's a welcome change of pace.

What we really need is an officially licensed Red Bull Air Race game! Not half turtle 'Koopa' dragons on hang gliders but fun action games like Wave Race in the sky!

[khph_re]

Originally Posted by Mixel

This makes no sense. The NES wasn’t as big here as it was in the US but it was still huge and mario has been a big deal here since then, across every single generation. And they support their consoles fine here in the uk, particularly since pal/ntsc stopped being an issue

The NES never even got close to selling a million units here. It only sold 8.5 million outside of the U.S and Japan. The master system outsold it, and even that wasn't particularly popular compared to the 8 and 16 bit micro's.

A lot of video game news is influenced by American media, so you get the impression it was huge. Nintendo didn't become a household name here until '89 with the Gameboy, and nor did Mario.

The NES didn't turn up here till late '86, and games were £30-40 a pop - it sunk like a stone.

Still, I'm not a huge Nintendo fan ..yet somehow I've got an N64, Wii, Gamecube and DS, so they must be doing something right!

[S0ulA55a551n]

Originally Posted by BigD

Great, the rest of the world loves Nintendo but other than Battle Toads, Duck Tails, Super Mario 3 and Duck Hunt the NES DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT impact here in the UK.

We had a home computer industry and our home grown developers morphed onto the PC and PlayStation ecosystems from the Spectrum, BBC, Amiga and ST. You can keep telling me that Nintendo are geniuses but they failed to enter our market within a reasonable time frame of the other world markets and have treated us with contempt ever since! They expect their childish franchises to sell by default and they have shown themselves to be a mean spirited company that smashes any fan service or modding community that may have built some bridges between us and them. As a counterpoint, SEGA employed Christian Whitehead to build Sonic Mania, THE best Sonic game of modern times. If he'd have been a Mario fan Nintendo would have sued him into bankruptcy before ever considering getting him to make a game with Mario Maker (which is needed since Nintendo refuse to bundle one with the package)!

Nintendo are a truly sick company IMHO and yet masquerading as a wholesome one with family values! They will not be getting ANY money from me whether their works are considered masterpieces or not.

Can you show us on a doll where Nintendo hurt you. I love the absolute authority with which you speak about Nintendo and the UK. It is just your, rather minority , opinion.

[Anubis]

Originally Posted by TCD

I can litterally hear you giggling in your basement lair while posting this

No basement lair here, just regular home (gaming) office, but rest of the post is spot on.


I just can't figure out that with age and hopefully knowledge that comes with it, some of us are still childishly biased.


I remember playing first time Ice Climber and wishing there was something similar on Amiga. Such a simple game that with levels gets more challenging and it is fun in co-op. Not to mention obvious Metroid and Zelda games, but some later games, such as Kirby's Adventures would be nice, if there was something similar if not the same, on Amiga. Air Fortress is another example of game that just did everything right, mix of platformer and shooter. Took some time to complete that game.


We also missed all Megaman series... and we got Metal Gear just recently...