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Old 15 October 2017, 21:04   #421
Gzegzolka
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I have no idea, maybe people request too much, like when someone made simple game in backbone and is bashed, but when somebody release some cancelled unreleased game he was working in old days there is just few positive comments?
You know me, I have no coding skill but I will always give positive comments about people projects. I am nut on unreleased stuff.
There were many games in plans, but most of them were only previewed like people took too much ambition task to realize. Could You think about all those declarations about ambitious projects people made and how few of them receive updates?
I wish that people be more positive, leave more comments and try to encourage more those people who are creative. In my opinion we should be more grateful for people who try to create something and those ones who recover their old works, they do not need to do that and they do that for no profit, they have normal job, family, other hobbies and they decide to cope with old sometimes broken hardware/code to entertain us, provide high equality content.
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Old 19 October 2017, 00:11   #422
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Originally Posted by Dunny View Post
Not really. I see many threads come and go where someone's enthusiasm for the causes them to ask "Why isn't <game x> on the ? The could totally nail it!" followed by many old-hands explaining why not, with more enthusiastic chaps explaining how it could be done (often with totally impractical solutions - such as rendering 3D models as sprites in every conceivable position, rotation and animation).

Then the threads die because:

1. The people who can code such things know it can't realistically be done

and

2. The people shouting about how the could totally do <game x> have no clue about programming in general, let alone programming for the .
One people should be go their own way and not be influenced by negative thinking other people.

Sorry for me english. Maybe you know, what I mean and understand me.
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Old 19 October 2017, 06:28   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gzegzolka View Post
I have no idea, maybe people request too much, like when someone made simple game in backbone and is bashed, but when somebody release some cancelled unreleased game he was working in old days there is just few positive comments?
You know me, I have no coding skill but I will always give positive comments about people projects. I am nut on unreleased stuff.
There were many games in plans, but most of them were only previewed like people took too much ambition task to realize. Could You think about all those declarations about ambitious projects people made and how few of them receive updates?
I wish that people be more positive, leave more comments and try to encourage more those people who are creative. In my opinion we should be more grateful for people who try to create something and those ones who recover their old works, they do not need to do that and they do that for no profit, they have normal job, family, other hobbies and they decide to cope with old sometimes broken hardware/code to entertain us, provide high equality content.
I agree. But we can take only the positive and any negation send to shit.
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Old 19 October 2017, 07:30   #424
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No amount of positive thinking will expand the limitations of the hardware. We have positive thinkers, but the software hasn't materialised. :-)
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Old 19 October 2017, 07:35   #425
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I do not say that we should bomb people with love, constructive criticism is a good thing. Like I do not like in general backbone games for how not smooth controls they have, but I will never say that I do not like somebody and think he is stupid because he choose to make his game in backbone.
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Old 19 October 2017, 08:25   #426
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Of course, I fully support constructive / positive communication.
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Old 19 October 2017, 08:25   #427
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@Dunny, @Jope, @Gzegzolka: Are You creative?
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Old 19 October 2017, 08:29   #428
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In some sense yes, but I personally still have a lot of self-improvement to do to properly release my creativity. Circular thoughts don't allow creativity to run free.

Sort of a side effect of knowing about too many things. Ignorance is bliss in a way in terms of creativity.

When you don't know the limits, you can do anything, but you must do instead of dreaming about doing. So all Amiga homebrew enthusiasts: start doing. Hit those brick walls and work your way around them. Scale back when you can't work around them. But don't hope that someone else will code/draw/compose your game for you.
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Old 19 October 2017, 08:49   #429
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@Jope: What you interested within in create?
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Old 19 October 2017, 09:39   #430
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ASCII/ANSI, code. I never put in the hours to pixel graphics, so I can't do that at all. I haven't put enough hours into coding either, but at least I can do something there. I am yet to compose a piece of music that I can bear the next day, but I'm working on that. :-)
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Old 19 October 2017, 09:52   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisiak4 View Post
One people should be go their own way and not be influenced by negative thinking other people.
Unfortunately, most often these "positive thinkers" are people who don't want to do anything themselves, and instead expect others to do all the work for them.
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Old 19 October 2017, 09:55   #432
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The Amiga homebrew scene is the most impressive.

Quote:
Why is the homebrew scene on the Amiga not as impressive...
This is a wrong question! Because the Amiga homebrew scene is the most impressive of all the retro platforms I saw over the years. If you talk about games, may be not so impressive, even if good full games were released like Tales of Gorluth and Solid Gold. Then we have very accurate arcade ports like Rygar. We also have ~100% accurate ports from Atari ST, Oric and 3D engines like Doom, Hexen, Heretic, Duke Nukem etc etc. Mod and patches of old games, making them more playable or enhancing them. For the hardware we have many new releases and even 2 free firmwares for Gotek floppies. All this came from the homebrew scene. Then we have the demo scene were the most impressive demos are released for Amiga hardware.

Since there is virtually zero commercial development for the classic Amiga right now, all new uploads to Aminet and the Zone are done by the homebrew scene. I loved playing with emulators and checking other platforms homebrew releases and I must say - they suck compared to the Amiga releases. That's it. Amiga's homebrew is the most impressive.
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Old 19 October 2017, 11:24   #433
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Originally Posted by Lisiak4 View Post
@Dunny, @Jope, @Gzegzolka: Are You creative?
Yes, I suppose I am. I'm a professional developer, working in music software. I also have numerous other public projects - a BASIC Interpreter, a couple of emulators, that sort of thing.
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Old 19 October 2017, 14:38   #434
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Originally Posted by drHirudo View Post
This is a wrong question! Because the Amiga homebrew scene is the most impressive of all the retro platforms I saw over the years. If you talk about games, may be not so impressive, even if good full games were released like Tales of Gorluth and Solid Gold. Then we have very accurate arcade ports like Rygar. We also have ~100% accurate ports from Atari ST, Oric and 3D engines like Doom, Hexen, Heretic, Duke Nukem etc etc. Mod and patches of old games, making them more playable or enhancing them. For the hardware we have many new releases and even 2 free firmwares for Gotek floppies. All this came from the homebrew scene. Then we have the demo scene were the most impressive demos are released for Amiga hardware.

Since there is virtually zero commercial development for the classic Amiga right now, all new uploads to Aminet and the Zone are done by the homebrew scene. I loved playing with emulators and checking other platforms homebrew releases and I must say - they suck compared to the Amiga releases. That's it. Amiga's homebrew is the most impressive.
You have a point there...
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Old 19 October 2017, 16:51   #435
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I am not much creative, just a little bit
I have no coding skills and I am not graphican, but I like drawing with my pencil from time to time.
I like playing old games for many strange reasons. I try different systems and consoles. 8bit scene is very impresive, Dreamcast got also some great games if You like shmups. Naturally there is lot of indie games for Windows because it is popularity and many tools.
As for Amiga I must admit that I am waiting for some games to be done like Alarcity, Bridge Strike or ReshootR. Plus there were many great games released few years ago - Solid Gold, Arctic Moves, Putty Squad, Tanks Furry, Enemy2, Zerosphere. Plus there are some other smaller games too, conversions, ports, Erok works and recovered unreleased stuff.
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Old 19 October 2017, 21:29   #436
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My problem with Backbone is that I believe there are some people using it that could do a lot better if they didn't use it. They have great ideas and the means to work around Backbone to get them to as best a point it allows them to, but if they teamed up with other people and make it with proper tools, or took extra time/effort to learn a new tool like Blitz Basic, they would make some incredibly gobsmacking games, so I hate seeing all that creativity spoiled by a shitty "engine" or possible laziness. I understand people have other more important shit to do, but nobody is rushing you, your hobby time is yours to use as you want, so if it takes 3 more years because you are learning how to code, so be it. The end result will be worth it. But I guess for them they need some sort of result (for example: people reaction), in a quicker time to make their hobby "worthwile".

On the other spectrum there's people that probably are working on stuff and they don't feel the need to mouth off online about their work in progress, and have been doing stuff for years without you or I knowing about it. I know some like that and can't wait for them to release whatever they are working on, whenever that is. I feel like Mr. Beanbag was a bit like that before it suddenly showed up (and I wish Mrs. Beanbag was still around the forums and working on that great game ).

Gzegzolka, you or anyone that says "I have no coding skills", like if it was some unchangeable destiny that forbids them from doing Amiga stuff, can change that point of view and realize that they can learn how to code and much faster than they think. It's not a DNA trait that you are born with and will take to your grave.

The matter is if you want to or not. But "no coding skills" is not really an excuse, because that is something that can be rather easily changed.

Now, as discussed before, getting to know and work with the Amiga platform in detail, that's another question, but also, where there's a will, there's a way.
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Old 20 October 2017, 01:39   #437
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Quote:
Gzegzolka, you or anyone that says "I have no coding skills", like if it was some unchangeable destiny that forbids them from doing Amiga stuff, can change that point of view and realize that they can learn how to code and much faster than they think. It's not a DNA trait that you are born with and will take to your grave.

The matter is if you want to or not. But "no coding skills" is not really an excuse, because that is something that can be rather easily changed.
Well, there's that but there's also the fact that many people may be good at something but suck at something else. Or simply they hate or don't have fun doing that other thing. Would you say the same thing f.e. to a seasoned coder? Like: stop whining for not having good gfx for your games and just learn how to pixel art. Easy-peasy, only 3 years of intense training.... lol

I personally see the problem in a more wholistic perspective. In a scene, each member (creative or not) needs to do his part to ensure success:

- You don't know how to code, pixel art, make music/sfx or help with game design? Do you want more games being made for Amiga? Pretty fine!
a) Make sure you SUPPORT those who are creative, financially or morally or otherwise.
b) Give good, positive feedback for their efort.
c) Provide constructive and sincere criticism (while being polite and without cannibalising) to help them make a better game!
d) Spread the word, write an article in your blog, share on facebook or do a video!
e) Eventually however you choose to act, engaging with the project in any way possible is the key here. Even a simple "good work there guys " is enough!

- For the rest, creative people, collaboration and communication is the way to go:
a) Offer your help or reach out to other people's help, build or join teams.
b) Communicate publicly your thoughts and creativity. Come forward, out of the shadows and SHARE your work!
c) Continue trying and being creative. One misstep is not the end of the journey! Be 100% sure that whatever you do, however you do it and regardless of the outcome there is a vast (often silent) majority out there that greately respects your effort!

- For the community as a whole, we need to make sure that we build a healthier environment for all those great things to happen and flourish. How we behave to each other and the level of tolerance and endurance we show is crucial (this stands true both for developers and public). Unfortunately the lack of those above is yet another reason that underminds the situation in the scene. For example, when a 9 year old pops up in the forum, eager to learn how to make games on Amiga (with the obvious lack of etiquette and naivity you WOULD expect from a 9 year old) and gets bashed 9 seconds later, this speaks volumes about the level of intolerance and toxicity towards creativity in our retro community. It's a rather extreme example (I know) but tells a very true, all too familiar story here.

-Last point, again regarding the community but from the perspective of resources: It's being mentioned 1000 times in this thread.
a) We need more technical discussions.
b) More info out in the open.
c) A better, more organised and comprehensive way for someone to access it.
c) More tutorials on how to make things.
d) And eventually (on a higher level) more and better tools to do our work.

@Gzegzolka: hey man, pretty awesome work there! Would you like to do some concept art for Alarcity perhaps?
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Old 20 October 2017, 03:00   #438
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Well, there's that but there's also the fact that many people may be good at something but suck at something else.
True, but I feel people stop before trying because they think coding is some almighty skill bestowed upon a select few. It isn't .

Also to suck at coding is easily remediable, because if you suck, your shit don't work, and you learn until you make it work! Are there people that write amazing/better code than others? Sure. But at the current situation, shitty written code that works is better than shitty "engine" that creates sub-ZX Spectrum games that run on 030+ requirements.

As I mentioned before, start easy, like Blitz Basic or AMOS, and work your way form there. You cando a lot of good with those two (look at Genesia, Super Skidmarks, Blitz Tennis)

Quote:
Or simply they hate or don't have fun doing that other thing.
Sure, if they try and hate it or it isn't fun, fair enough!

My whole point is that anyone can learn how to code. And even if you don't end up coding a game, the knowledge will get into yourbrain and it will help you design games, no matter your role.


I know collaboration is a good option for those who do not want to do everything, I actually would prefer a team effort than solo action, because the result is better, but finding a team of people you like to work with is very hard, it might just not work even if each team member is the best at what they do. There needs to be some chemistry, and this could be very hard to obtain.
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Old 20 October 2017, 07:49   #439
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Originally Posted by Tsak View Post
- You don't know how to code, pixel art, make music/sfx or help with game design? Do you want more games being made for Amiga? Pretty fine!
a) Make sure you SUPPORT those who are creative, financially or morally or otherwise.
b) Give good, positive feedback for their efort.
c) Provide constructive and sincere criticism (while being polite and without cannibalising) to help them make a better game!
d) Spread the word, write an article in your blog, share on facebook or do a video!
e) Eventually however you choose to act, engaging with the project in any way possible is the key here. Even a simple "good work there guys " is enough!
f) DON'T open n+1 "why hasn't anyone made X or Y on Amiga???"-threads on forums, without actually having something to contribute yourself

Quote:
It's a rather extreme example (I know) but tells a very true, all too familiar story here.
Unfortunately it's too easy to be cynical, but it's usually quite easy to spot who's genuinely asking for help and who basically just wants everyone else to do all the hard work for them.

EDIT: as in, it's better to try stuff for yourself and then do a post like "what am I doing wrong here" instead of just going "how do I do X or Y" without having put any thought to it.

Last edited by britelite; 20 October 2017 at 07:52. Reason: Making myself more clear
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Old 20 October 2017, 09:38   #440
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@Tsak: Word! for everything you said..

Not everybody needs to be a coder or Pixelartist or Protracker-Genius, but just writing that you like something that somebody presents goes a long way.
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