31 December 2020, 10:35 | #201 | ||
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31 December 2020, 10:47 | #202 | |||||||
son of 68k
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Nope. Quote:
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Try it ! Quote:
And again you're exagerating my position. I'm not against software mixing when it's necessary. The problem is that it's done when not necessary. |
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31 December 2020, 15:42 | #203 |
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31 December 2020, 18:52 | #204 | |
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No, I don't hate the Amiga. I hate mindless fanboys and fanatics of any kind. People that close their eyes from reality and are incapable of any fair or scientiic comparison. I'm personally used to AmigaOs, but also to other systems, and I know their limitations. But I don't pretend that AmigaOs is the "Best Operating System Ever!"(tm). None is, but AmigaOs is in multiple ways very very behind. For obvious reasons, of course. |
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31 December 2020, 19:15 | #205 | |||||||||||
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Every non-trivial program has bugs, and the Os should do its best to keep the system running in case they are triggered. AmigaOs cannot do that. Quote:
Why you would care I do not know, but you seem to complain a lot on the "bloat" of windows, and confuse that with the "bloat" of any other operating system. Yet, you fail to appreciate that there are certainly choices for operating systems where you control how much services (or "bloat" in your language) run. Quote:
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Make yourself a pleasure and read about it. The wikipedia page has a lot to say. It's a point for many. Quote:
Absolutely. But it has a robust design. It's not the age that makes a difference, but whether it is designed properly, and maintained properly. Amiga is just locked in in its mistakes. Not saying that Unix doesn't have some, either. But they are much less fatal for a robust service. [QUOTE=meynaf;1449634] And again, you're just plain 100% wrong. I don't lack experience with other systems. I coded on litterally everything ranging from pic microcontrollers to ibm c370. And of course - alas - also on the pc. [QUOTE] Apparently, you do. Know nothing about alsa, or linux, or xfce. Quote:
You have a choice. I made my choice. I have Amigas here, and Linux boxes (like this one), and also a Windows machine. Everything has its value, and its purpose. |
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31 December 2020, 20:38 | #206 | ||||||||||||||||
son of 68k
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Done. I could play mp3 on my 030 with acceptable quality after optimising mpega.library, and i can also play aac under winuae (i think vampire cards have enough power to do it too). Quote:
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It is. But most programmers prefer to do complex and unwieldy things instead. Matter to satisfy their ego, maybe, i don't know. Quote:
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Bugs that are not detected at development time are for the most part harmless : program will not do what's expected or have glitches, but real crashes are rare. On big machines I've seen programs that have run during 40 years without an error. Quote:
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Now what does that mean (wikipedia extracts) : "The SB/Live had great difficulty with resampling audio-CD source material (44.1 kHz) without introducing audible distortion." "The DSP had an internal fixed sample rate of 48 kHz" "the AC'97 chip provided an internal 48 kHz DAC" Quote:
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You can say what you want, but give it enough cpu power (with adequate software) and the Amiga will be able to do anything other platforms can do - with less resources involved. Quote:
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I don't pretend to know everything. And i don't care about linux either, as already mentioned. It's not as if it had a significant desktop market share. Quote:
Really, i just want a machine that is fun to code on. |
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31 December 2020, 21:42 | #207 | |||||
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You can pump the DACs as fast as you like (even 56kHz), you aren't getting any better audio fidelity. Quote:
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31 December 2020, 22:41 | #208 | ||||||||
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After being introduced by IBM in 1981 as PC DOS, it very quickly became the OS standard for desktop computers, remaining so for the entire period of the Amiga's existence. For something that 'isn't much' its influence was enormous, so much that no other OS managed to dent the hold it had over the market. But of course you have to dismiss MS-DOS, because if you didn't you would have to admit that Amiga OS was more sophisticated than the industry standard 'serious' OS of the time. Quote:
A fair proportion of Amiga games did actually use the OS while running, including famous titles that 'most people' almost certainly played at one time or another. This includes some that were bundled with the A500, so we can bet that pretty much every Amiga user used more than just the bootloader part of the OS. And that's just games. I don't know about where you come from, but down here in New Zealand virtually all Amigas were bought by people who used their expensive purchase for more than just games. I should know, I owned and operated a computer store selling Amigas from 1991 to 2000. Quote:
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More and more people today are finding that 'modern' is actually not that interesting to them. They want something they can understand and create with without a lifetime of study and being told how they have to do it. A huge amount of activity in the 'toy' category is now spilling over into 'professional' areas, via the 'maker community' which is using tiny MCU boards and modules for embedded applications. There is no fundamental reason why an Amiga inspired architecture couldn't make inroads into that market, even if just as a 'toy'. Toys are actually big business. Quote:
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But today I see many people riding ebikes and scooters who would have laughed at the idea a few years ago. I still only see electric cars occasionally (apart from my own one), but the market is expanding rapidly and every major manufacturer has committed to transitioning to electric - even those who only recently considered them a joke. Why? Because some people (the 'trend setters') bought electric vehicles because they were interesting, despite having severe limitations compared to gas cars. I get in a gas car today and think - why do I have to wait so long for it to warm up? Why does it feel like a rubber band is winding up every time I want to go? Why does it make all that noise? Why do I have to fill it up with this expensive, dangerous, polluting chemical that is only available from purpose-built 'gas stations' far from home? Why does it have to be serviced every 6 months, and why does it smell so bad? The answer? "That's what a modern car is", they say, "and it cannot be any other way. Your Leaf is just an outdated inadequate technology that will never replace it. We laugh at you for buying a 'retro' car and thinking you will enjoy driving it more than our modern SUVs, let alone get any practical use out of it". And yet I do - just like I do from my Amiga. Quote:
Last edited by Bruce Abbott; 31 December 2020 at 22:47. |
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01 January 2021, 08:59 | #209 | ||||
son of 68k
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So thanks. What a nice demonstration that the "abstraction layer" is indeed quite inept. Frankly you can't decently pretend this is in any way better than an Amiga. Quote:
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And this is exactly what i can do. My A1200 just has 030 ; what it can do, on a 060 it would do with just around 25% cpu use. If still not enough, there is the V1200. |
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01 January 2021, 10:02 | #210 | ||||
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I thought this code also included the low pass filter, and the nonlinear 8bit->16bit lookup table, apparently not... I think this code does use Amiga tuning, and timing... and the the software mixing, that was so I could implement the channel cross talk present on Amigas, which modern hardware doesn’t do. Quote:
Back then I had to get a Roland W-30 music workstation to get professional quality audio. At the time it was really good and you could build a significant proportion of a song using it, but now it is useless for the task it was designed... I have kept it because, like the Amiga, it has some interesting audio characteristics. Quote:
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01 January 2021, 10:33 | #211 | |||||
son of 68k
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What do you mean by "overlap of samples" ? What do you mean by "environmental effects" ? Games of early 90's had nothing special. Quote:
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Where's the "better" here ? Quote:
Isn't it wonderful ? Everyone likes their machines for different reasons. |
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01 January 2021, 11:32 | #212 | ||||||
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Environmental effects, like delays and reverbs... by the early ‘90s, the Amiga Audio was just about ok for games... but game developers were looking at the horizon and planning for better! Quote:
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This code never went in production, which is why I still own the rights to it and can share it. If it were for serious work, I would always use 32bit float audio, not 16bit It would be even simpler if I just used the audio device raw, opened 4 8bit channels etc (you can read how the SDL API works... and half the code is just structure definitions and byte swapping! I also seem to have wanted the ability to “O’Scope” the individual channels (I have no idea what my plan was for that, but that has made the code more convoluted too... Why not add an LP filter and whatever else you like, you might find it fun. Quote:
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01 January 2021, 11:40 | #213 | |
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My high frequency hearing is so shot that I can hardly tell the difference between 8 bit and 16 bit sound, or 16kHz and 44kHz. I am amazed by how good those old 8 bit 4 channel Mods sound, blasting out of my stereo with huge speakers producing enough sound to drown out the constant tinnitus I am afflicted with. I prefer standard 640x256 resolution in composite video because my eyes can't handle pin sharp high resolution screens for long. My Amiga may be old and incapable of the performance people expect today, but it suits my old body perfectly. Modern PCs may be far more capable, but they still seem to suffer from unexplained delays and poor response at random times. I can turn on my A1200, fire up a Mod player and have continuous music playing in seconds with no noticeable effect on performance, unlike my PC which takes an age to start up, constantly runs into virtual memory and thrashes around for no good reason. On my Amiga I often have several programs running on their own screens, each totally independent and instantly accessible when I need them. I can drag screens down or flick between them to see something on one while typing into another, whereas on the PC I am forever minimizing and expanding windows in an attempt to do the same. The Amiga is slower at doing some things for sure, but compared to the PC it is far more consistent. In general operation it feels responsive, solid, and reliable - almost like pure hardware - whereas the PC is frustratingly vague and often makes me feel like I am the lowest priority to it. Yes, the Amiga has limitations, but they often aren't a big deal, and can sometimes even be an advantage. No virtual memory means programs can't allocate Gigabytes and then slow the computer down to a crawl. Not powerful enough to play streaming video so I don't struggle trying to shut them down in the web browser before it locks up trying to do too much. Not quite powerful enough to play mp3s without sucking up all the CPU time, so I am 'forced' to play - and appreciate - those wonderful Mods instead! |
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01 January 2021, 11:59 | #214 |
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01 January 2021, 12:09 | #215 | ||||||
son of 68k
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But mine is that your analogy isn't valid.
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No, really, i wouldn't find it fun. However, would you find it fun to implement the audio API i want to have in my VM ? As it's so easy according to you. Quote:
You have chosen the characteristics you find interesting, i have chosen mine. They just differ. |
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01 January 2021, 13:20 | #216 |
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I'm as nostalgic as a pile of bricks! No, really. I never stopped using my A1200.
The A1200 doesn't have any interesting characteristics when you turn the audio filter off and can sound quite good for WAV files made from CDs. This character you speak off comes from the filter and low fidelity samples. Other Amigas have some filter crap going on, and on the A1200 you get similarly shitty sound if you turn the filter on. |
01 January 2021, 13:35 | #217 | |||||||
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I feel like I’m being trolled. Perhaps my use of langue is an issue? But, I’m sorry to say my French is abysmal, so I have to use English, and I’m honestly embarrassed by this fact.
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The Amiga DACs just get fed a value by the DMA, and will hold that value until next sample. This is how the Amiga resamples its audio buffers. I have used this same technique in my tracker code, as it introduces harmonics via aliasing, which would be better filtered out, but again that’s a limitation of the way the Amiga produces audio. If memory serves the actual DACs in paula are a couple of 1bit 3.5Mhz PDMs, which is why they need the reconstruction filter stages. The model exposed to the programmer doesn’t really match the reality of what is going on. So it’s probably time to move away that particular point. If it helps, think of the audio callback as the DMA... the model is much the same. Quote:
Also if you have a high fidelity (16bit, 44.1kHz or better) playback device, like you will find on a modern computer, you don’t need an aggressive low pass filter to try and hide all the distortion and noise in the audio signal! Quote:
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01 January 2021, 14:02 | #218 | |||||
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It's the fukken filter Anyway, CD style audio sounds similar to my peecee on my A1200, except for softer passages in music. |
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01 January 2021, 14:36 | #219 | |||||||||||
son of 68k
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Everyone has single buffer played at any time ! But you can "program" next buffer, if it's what you mean, to seamlessly continue playing. Quote:
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Please let me explain. The period isn't just the DMA fetch period. It is actually the real speed at which the AUDxDAT (audio data registers) are fed to the DAC. Whenever AUDxDAT is empty (it contains two samples), the DMA refills it. You can also feed these registers with CPU to remove DMA speed limits. And the time between two samples is of course constant. Quote:
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The DACs are true 8-bit, using PWM for volume. Quote:
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You seem to not understand what i write... |
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01 January 2021, 14:51 | #220 | ||||
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You aren’t doing 44.1kHz unless you have shutdown the video DMA... that’s not a practical for most situations. Quote:
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